# k&n filters and blowing up?????



## TEAMWAY2DEEP (Sep 11, 2009)

ive been told by i mechanic from one of the local shops that the k&n filters dont filter ,mud and dirt as well as a foam filter. they said it has been a main cause of brutes blowing up. i was wanting a K&N but not sure now. what do u all think :thinking:


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## hondarecoveryman (Feb 28, 2009)

That dude was just mad cause he didnt have a K&N LOL , really if anything it does as good or better than stock type foam filters


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## TEAMWAY2DEEP (Sep 11, 2009)

lol ight i think im goin to get one.


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## Offroadin89 (Oct 28, 2009)

i have one. it prob dont filter as well as a foam filter but its not gonna blow up your motor. im gonna order one of those outerwear things soon for a lil more protection. Onereason i have my k&n is its so easy to clean compared to the foam filter.


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## 08GreenBrute (Jul 13, 2009)

Ive always heard that they don't filter as good but who knows i run one on my truck so its up to you i guess


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## 1bigforeman (Jun 23, 2009)

I would run one in my truck but never on a 4 wheeler. Let's in too much dirt...


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## drtj (May 3, 2009)

Don't they have some kind of prefilter that u spray something on?


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## Guarino113 (Oct 3, 2009)

ive had mine for 3 years and never had a problem


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

Ok...I use to run one....but here in Tennessee we have a lot of that real fine sand dust on some of the trails due to so many sand quarry.. I HAVE seen about 8 different bikes that had to be rebuilt cause of the K&N letting the smaller particles through it was heck on the motor...just like throwing sand in it.. 4 Kawasaki's..2 Polaris, 3 Yamaha's. I will NOT use them. I only use Uni or Twin Air.....not if your racing and not riding in real dusty places you are ok. We even had a guy from K&N come to the shop about 3 years ago...I watch him do a REAL test on some filters....it was sad at what got through.

I agree with 1bigforeman....even with a prefilter....too much gets through....


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Bootlegger said:


> Ok...I use to run one....but here in Tennessee we have a lot of that real fine sand dust on some of the trails due to so many sand quarry.. I HAVE seen about 8 different bikes that had to be rebuilt cause of the K&N letting the smaller particles through it was heck on the motor...just like throwing sand in it.. 4 Kawasaki's..2 Polaris, 3 Yamaha's. I will NOT use them. I only use Uni or Twin Air.....not if your racing and not riding in real dusty places you are ok. We even had a guy from K&N come to the shop about 3 years ago...I watch him do a REAL test on some filters....it was sad at what got through.
> 
> I agree with 1bigforeman....even with a prefilter....too much gets through....


This is 100% true. There are many studys and tests you can find on the web and all gauz type filters let more through then any other. They flow better because they filter less... I had one on my Brute and foutunatly always used a prefilter, then discovered the mounting plate had warped a bit and the front seal surface no longer made contact...let a lot of stuff through even though I always used grease. It was the grease that showed me the fan-pattern the air made as it sucked through. That stuff also scared my front cylender enough to allow Synthic oil to pass and burn. I had to stop using it and go back to conventional. I now use a Twin-Air. If you are going to use a K&N, always always use a prefilter...and check the cage mount. Take the thing out, mount your K&N and check the seal all the way around with a feeler guage. That one center screw looks to pull up on the center and the ends stay down making it warp and break seal....at least it did on mine.


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## SouthernGARider (Nov 24, 2009)

I agree with 1bigforman, I'd have one on my truck but never on a 4 wheeler. They just don't catch all the fine dirt thats in dust. Plus if you ever get water in your airbox a foam filter will hold some back the K&N is gonna let it soak right through. JMO


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

nmkawierider said:


> This is 100% true. There are many studys and tests you can find on the web and all gauz type filters let more through then any other. They flow better because they filter less... I had one on my Brute and foutunatly always used a prefilter, then discovered the mounting plate had warped a bit and the front seal surface no longer made contact...let a lot of stuff through even though I always used grease. It was the grease that showed me the fan-pattern the air made as it sucked through. That stuff also scared my front cylender enough to allow Synthic oil to pass and burn. I had to stop using it and go back to conventional. I now use a Twin-Air. If you are going to use a K&N, always always use a prefilter...and check the cage mount. Take the thing out, mount your K&N and check the seal all the way around with a feeler guage. That one center screw looks to pull up on the center and the ends stay down making it warp and break seal....at least it did on mine.


Thanks...I hate that you had that happen but most will not believe me...


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Bootlegger said:


> Thanks...I hate that you had that happen but most will not believe me...


Well at least it stopped using with the conventional oil. But people need to know. Maybe the engine doesn't go bad right away, but studies show they are wearing the cylenders, rings,valve seats & stems & guides faster then with any other filter. The wierd part is...of all types tested, the paper filters filtered the best. I'm still having a hard time with that one. I have run and trusted K&N most of my life until I read all that...then I wraped my stock filter around my Brute's K&N. That probably restricted it enough to cause more to be pulled through the front seal area and caused my headachs. Oh Well...got the twinair now and no more problems. Doesn't flow as great...but at least... its filtering.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

I love my Uni filter....thats all I will run.


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## hondarecoveryman (Feb 28, 2009)

I stand corrected ....


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## TEAMWAY2DEEP (Sep 11, 2009)

i think im goin to go with a twin air or UNi


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

hondarecoveryman said:


> I stand corrected ....


I am sorry if you thought I was saying you were Wrong.....I hope you didn't think I was meaning it like that.

They are great for racing....just not dusty conditions.


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## KMKjr (Jan 9, 2009)

KA-7504PK


If you read the instructions (I didn't), it tells you to use one of these for really dusty or dirty conditions.​


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

So you guys don't think we are BS'n ya about the K&N, here's a couple of sites to read over. 

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm

http://www.duramax-diesel.com/spicer/index.htm


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## TEAMWAY2DEEP (Sep 11, 2009)

the k&n is horrible!!!!! im thinkin bout twin air


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

KMKjr said:


> KA-7504PK
> 
> 
> If you read the instructions (I didn't), it tells you to use one of these for really dusty or dirty conditions.​


Not to sound rude...but those are not much of a help....all the guys I know had them...still didn't help.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

nmkawierider said:


> So you guys don't think we are BS'n ya about the K&N, here's a couple of sites to read over.
> 
> http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
> 
> http://www.duramax-diesel.com/spicer/index.htm



Nice!


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## KMKjr (Jan 9, 2009)

Bootlegger said:


> Not to sound rude...but those are not much of a help....all the guys I know had them...still didn't help.


Not rude at all!!! Was just a FYI.
I have K&N's in all my vehicles and never had a problem.
Believe what you want, but I can almost guarantee (from 20 years in the car repair business) that 99% of the time, there were other factors and not the air filters fault.


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## Guarino113 (Oct 3, 2009)

KMKjr said:


> Not rude at all!!! Was just a FYI.
> I have K&N's in all my vehicles and never had a problem.
> Believe what you want, but I can almost guarantee (from 20 years in the car repair business) that 99% of the time, there were other factors and not the air filters fault.


i agree with that. ive never had any problems but i dont want to say it is or it aint.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

I still have one in my truck because I feel most times, a well charged K&N will still effectively stop harmful particulates. And many places in the country don't have the dust intensity some other places do either, like me here, its F'n dry and the dust is massive and small like talc....but not on the paved roads, just off-road. That's the kind of stuff that kills engines. I have to say I did like my K&N because of the flowrate, but I never ran it here without a outerwears prefilter. And yes it would get very dirty. I realy don't think much got through, but...after it stopped sealing on the bottom, that was it. Replaced it with a stock filter replacement from Twinair. It feels almost the same as the K&N with the prefilter...yes that prefilter is a bit restrictive, but...I believe it did help. I would clean it 10 times to once on the filter. So you guys in wet areas are probably fine. Do run a prefilter though and check the flange-to-gasket seal once in a while. You guys know also that Outerwears makes a water resistant prefilter that won't let water pass through to the filter...right. For some of you guys that would be one of those.."Must Have" items. :rockn:


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## DaBrute (Aug 16, 2009)

KMKjr said:


> Not rude at all!!! Was just a FYI.
> I have K&N's in all my vehicles and never had a problem.
> Believe what you want, but I can almost guarantee (from 20 years in the car repair business) that 99% of the time, there were other factors and not the air filters fault.


I also agree with KMKjr, the other factors are usually maintenance related. Some guy's buy a K&N and think they can ride farther between cleaning and re-charging the filter. This is not so , the bottom line is : if you ride for the day in dusty or fine sand conditions you MUST clean after every ride! The reason is obvious the filter does filter less than stock BUT...you wanted more air flow to your motor right? You don't get something for nothing, meaning something has to be sacrificed. In the case of a K&N it is in the frequency the user must clean and re-charge. Period!


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## sandman7655 (Feb 18, 2009)

a properly maintained k&n will be fine,with the pre-filter,but almost nobody keeps them cleaned and oiled properly.it is diffferent than in a vehicle,they have to be cleaned and oiled properly based on riding conditions.


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## phreebsd (Dec 16, 2004)

i think k&n are fine filters. they test these things in a multitude of ways, on of which, by throwing a number of different particle sizes at the filter and measuring the amount that makes it through. there's a nice document on here detailing every test they conduct on the filters and their respective results.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

On cars they are just fine. I am talking about DUSTY riding with them. I have seen way too many have to rebuilt cause of the K&N.....I use to think they were the only way to go....but when the dust eats at the motor....its over. Two of them were guys I ride with...I know for a fact theirs was maintained just fine. One of them....is being rebuilt as we speak. If your just out riding and playing in the mud....they are fine. Where we here its dusty...I mean the thick dust to where its hard to see sometimes. I would say for most of the guys on here that mud ride...they are ok....but not for me.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Bootlegger said:


> I would say for most of the guys on here that mud ride...they are ok....but not for me.


And me either. Way too dusty here to risk it.


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## Guarino113 (Oct 3, 2009)

im just curious. how can you tell if the failure is due to the filter?


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

guarino113 said:


> im just curious. how can you tell if the failure is due to the filter?


Well, failures come in many degrees, but lets say the engine never took in any particles that could cause wear or scaring. The rings, cylinders,valve seats and stems will show wear, but will be more or less shiny to the eye and the life expectancy will have been met or exceeded. Now lets say an engine in took particles that when deposited on moving parts left very fine scuffs and marks so small, probably can't see it but in time material was warn away and things did get looser faster and she started using oil way sooner then the dealer or any web site said it would. When taken apart, one might see surfaces with a dull Haze and with some help with a magnifying glass, would see those marks that fine stuff left as it helped wear off material not unlike 1500 grit sand paper. Ok, one other scenario. Big particles like sand or even talc. Big scratches in everything right away. Full length runs in the cylinder walls, pits in the valve seats where they were crushed when closed, causing the valves to start leaking and burning the seats. Rings can't stop the oil from bypassing in those deep scratches so she starts using oil...more and more as the damage gets worse until it smokes like....well you know. With sand or larger stuff, all this can happen just a few dozen miles if bad enough. Oh yes, you can see it, and you won't need help.


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## Guarino113 (Oct 3, 2009)

o ok. That happened to my buddys and he has a uni.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

guarino113 said:


> o ok. That happened to my buddys and he has a uni.


And there are other way for stuff to get through as well. Mine lost the seal under the K&N and split both carb-to head boots. Ran it a long time without knowing it on the front boot split. For sure that sucked some stuff in. There is also that nice seal between the cage and the box that has to be right and greased when installed and the box to carb boots. Of course there is always the swallowing of muddy water when sinking.  Bad.

I think all we can do is the best we can with what we know and can control. Check these things sometimes just to make sure there are no issues, and whatever filter you use, make sure its serviced often and correctly and if there is a little something you can do to improve your odds, like a prefilter, or a better eliment, do it! Sure can't hurt.


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## KMKjr (Jan 9, 2009)

Regardless, all of these problems are driver related, not filter.

Clean it, replace it or regret it.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

KMKjr said:


> Regardless, all of these problems are driver related, not filter.
> 
> Clean it, replace it or regret it.


so its all the Drivers? So my riding buddy who cleaned his properly after EVERY ride and even put a prefilter on it....its his fault it didn't filter correctly? 

We ride where most of the time there is a LOT of dust...No one else who had OEM, Twin Air or Uni has ever had a problem....only the K&N's have....but like I said! They fine if your not riding in Dust.


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## KMKjr (Jan 9, 2009)

If you are 100% sure K&N caused, call thme and get there R&D department to disprove it or I'd say they would responsible for the damage.

But answer this......how am I watching the Dakar rally on TV and half of the teams have K&N filter stickers on them. Would you not agree that they would be driving in the most extreme conditions, including dust?


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

KMKjr said:


> If you are 100% sure K&N caused, call thme and get there R&D department to disprove it or I'd say they would responsible for the damage.
> 
> But answer this......how am I watching the Dakar rally on TV and half of the teams have K&N filter stickers on them. Would you not agree that they would be driving in the most extreme conditions, including dust?


K&N did come to the shop and they did compensate the two Yamaha's when I worked there...I work at Kawasaki now and we are in the process of them paying for the Brute Force in the shop now. The guy that came to the Yamaha shop even said they are not good for a prolong riding in heavy dust.....as in one day of long riding. Unless your leading the ride...your in heavy dust here. I am not saying it not a good filter....just not good for dusty trail riding....it lest too much through.

BTW.....what is the Dakar rally? Is it ATV's?


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## KMKjr (Jan 9, 2009)

Bootlegger said:


> BTW.....what is the Dakar rally? Is it ATV's?


Bike, atv's, trucks, buses, cars, buggies......almost everything on wheels.


Glad to see K&N are stepping up, too bad they don't put a warning on the box or something to tell people about the issue if they are aware of it.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

KMKjr said:


> Bike, atv's, trucks, buses, cars, buggies......almost everything on wheels.
> 
> 
> Glad to see K&N are stepping up, too bad they don't put a warning on the box or something to tell people about the issue if they are aware of it.


I use them on the Trucks....they work great for vehicles. Atv motors are too sensitive I guess...lol

They are highly aware of the issue....but if they did that the wouldn't sale many for atv's IMO.....mooney i guess..lol


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## Greg G (Jan 8, 2009)

Not sure it this has anything to do with the Brute with blown motors but I had a KnN on my Grizz 660 and I discovered that the lid did not fit properly to hold the filter tight. I got a ProDesign with the KnN, the set up that has a clamp around the base of the filter, with an Outerwares pre filter and ran this for over 4 years and never had an engine related problem. I cleaned my filter and changed oil every month. I wonder if some of the filter related failures are due in part to a bad seal? I know that the factory setup in my Grizz was crappy at best. The Brute seems to be a better design and I use grease on the bottom also. 

Greg G


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## phreebsd (Dec 16, 2004)

well dirt always takes the path of least resistance..


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## KMKjr (Jan 9, 2009)

Tread was locked.... but don't know why?

Let the debate continue!

If they are aware of the issue, how can they continue to sell them without a warning or something.

That seems dishonest?


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

KMKjr said:


> Tread was locked.... but don't know why?
> 
> Let the debate continue!
> 
> ...


LOL....they would lose money and that is what its about. That is the reason they paid so quick IMO.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

I am sure there are some issues with seal-surfaces and lack of maintenance and not using enough oil or not letting them dry completely before applying the oil. I am also sure that in many locations the K&N is just fine and no issues will ever come from using it. It is a good filter. One thing that does stick in my mind is that when I was talking to a K&N rep about my first one for a truck I had, he said I would not have to service it for at least 50,000 miles. Let it go he said..."the dirtyer it gets, the better it filters". If that's so, do we want them realy clean? I think its up to each of us to decide what's best for ourselves. I believe Bootlegger and I have made our decession based on our experiences and tests that have been done and factored-in where we live. Hope this thread cools down a little. I loved my K&N, and I would have probably run it with a wrap or prefilter forever.. until the seal problem. Now it sits on the top shelf . Now if I am going to race a buddy,...I'll probably put that thing back in for a short bit...


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## KMKjr (Jan 9, 2009)

I'm guesing (and hoping) that salesman is not with them anymore....lol

Nice sales pitch for an air filter salesman "Dirtier is better"


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

KMKjr said:


> I'm guesing (and hoping) that salesman is not with them anymore....lol
> 
> Nice sales pitch for an air filter salesman "Dirtier is better"


Yeah...sticks with ya...10 years now..


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## Hueyguy626 (Mar 4, 2010)

*HAHAHAHA*

For sale 1 new in box K&N filter for 06 bf 650 sra. hahahaha J/K
i think ill take my chances. i am good about cleaning and inspecting my quad before and after i ride. it will be ok i think


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Just like everything else, if it is not maintained properly it will give you problems.

Have a K&N on everything I own. From my 4 wheeler to my F-250. If I could find one small enough for my lawn mower, it would have one too. 

You just need to stay on top of the maintenance.


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## Stogi (Feb 24, 2010)

Had a K&N on my Warrior.. it sucked because of the way it mounted, Never got a good seal. I have a TwinAir on my Brute..... the only thing it won't stop is water.....:banghead: lol


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