# Lost compression



## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

It kills me to write this today but I think the brute is done.

Up at red creek Saturday and ran the ponds twice cause it wasn't that deep. Maybe to the bottom of the seat. On my last run through I was following a jack arse who couldn't get it going straight so I had to slow down in order to avoid running over him. Welp when I did the bike cut out on me.

Got her out of the hole super quick to assess the damage. No water in the oil or air box. Tipped her up on her behind and a little bit of water came out the exhaust. Maybe about 2 cups if I had to guess.

Pulled her back to the truck and pulled the plugs. Nice and clean and no water in the cylinders. She cranks all day long but no fire. I have spark and fuel.

Checked compression yesterday. Rear cylinder had 30 and the front had 10. So I followed the instructions for a sunk vtwin and got the front cylinder up to 65 and rear at 60. Tossed the plugs back in and tried to fire it off. Nadda, checked compression again and it was back to 30/10. 

Y'all think the rings are toast?

Thanks in advance.


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---------- Post added at 06:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 AM ----------

My signature doesn't show on tapatalk, 2" snorkels, uni filter, hmf performance, dyna dfs2-15, 42s fuel pump

2008 650i


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Well you say there was nothing in the cylinders or oil but some water was in the exhaust so maybe a warped valve stem or two. Still...one cylinder should do something..backfire atleast.


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Leak down would tell me if my valves are warped right?



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## gdesch23 (May 26, 2010)

It'll tell you something is not right, doesn't mean its a warped valve for sure. If the valve was warped, chances are it won't seat right and yes the compression would be bad.

Sucks it happened. But as I learned from having to recently rebuild, you play, you pay. But its worth having fun!


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## 2010Bruterider (Jun 20, 2010)

Pour some oil on top of the pistons and then install the plugs and try again. I've seen water cool an engine fast enough that the rings loose their seal. The oil in the cylinders will usually hold compression long enough to get it to fire. Don't give up on it yet.


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Haven't thrown in the towel yet. First major problem I've had since I bought her new in 2008. Will try again when I get home tonight


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## carms_2 (Jul 21, 2010)

2010Bruterider said:


> Pour some oil on top of the pistons and then install the plugs and try again. I've seen water cool an engine fast enough that the rings loose their seal. The oil in the cylinders will usually hold compression long enough to get it to fire. Don't give up on it yet.


:agreed: I had the same problem and brought mine back to life like this. I used wd-40 put a good bit in each cylinder and let it soak for a while. I would say about an hour. Then I cranked it over with no plugs in it and blew the wd out of it. Once I put the plugs in it it finally fired after a few minutes of cranking. I did a compression test afterwards and hd 65 rear and 55 front the bike rungs great.

Good-Luck


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Update. Added oil to both cylinders and put the plugs back in it. Cranked it and it almost caught a few times then nothing. I'm moving in the right direction tho


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

seeing alot of smoke/combustion gas puff out of the oil breather in the air box when cranking. guessing rings are done. Will start tearing her down this weekend. Pictures to follow :buttkick: I would be ok with continuing to dump oil down in the cylinders but I noticed a lot of oil on the right side of the front cylinder too. Something let go up there so shes gonna have to come apart anyways.


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Does anyone out there sell a complete top end kit with stem seals and rings that's worth a durn? Found some on eBay made by Athena. Never heard of them


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## james83 (Oct 31, 2012)

my buddy has a yfz 450 with a Athena big bore with a new cylinder and has proably 20 or 30 hours hard riding on it without any problems


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## rmax (Nov 21, 2009)

man do not quit yet ,mine looked the same way last time i sank it ,do not know for sure where it came from ,but after getting it fired up , an cleaned ,i had no more oil on the engine


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

rmax said:


> man do not quit yet ,mine looked the same way last time i sank it ,do not know for sure where it came from ,but after getting it fired up , an cleaned ,i had no more oil on the engine


It's tough to be optimistic about this Rick. I never thought I'd be so down in the dumps over a 4 wheeler but its almost like I lost a family member lol


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## Dbright (Oct 15, 2012)

Might not be in the ballpark but I had a similar problem. Was spinning not firing at all. Put in shop they said no compression needed a rebuild. I ended up finding out my valves were to tight and not letting it build enough compression. Might be something to check if not already.


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

She's alive! ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!! And I have mystery oil sprayed all over my garage and wife's car from the cylinders lol. Gonna continue changing the oil. There was a little bit of water in it but not much. Once I'm done changing it ill run a compression check again and post what I got. 


So relieved to hear it run and not hear any knocking or metallic noises coming from the motor!


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## fatkidkustomz (Aug 27, 2011)

Although I'm sad to hear about a Brute down, I'm actually glad this topic came up. I'm unfortunately going through the exact same thing. 

Went to Busco Beach a few weeks ago, and unfortunately hour 4 or 5 of our 5 day trip, I swamped the bike. Even worse, it was due to me being dumb and not double checking the clamp on the air box. 

Long story short, filled the bike with water. Front cylinder, crank case, carbs, air box, everything. Now, this isn't my first time or even 10th time swamping a bike for that matter, so I didn't panic. Towed me back to the camper, and started changing oil and flushing the motor.

Well, got the oil situation satisfactory, and tried to start it. Wouldn't start. Had spark, had fuel, but didn't run. So after some head scratching, I ran to Advance and grabbed a compression gauge. 

Now, either the gauge adapter wasn't screwing in all the way, or I screwed this thing up bad. Had 25 psi in both cylinders and it wouldn't even hold that. It would leak down.

Is there a certain way to check compression on these things? They've got decompression valves in the cams don't they?

Last weekend I got the carbs off the bike and they were full of mud, so I cleaned them out, so I know it wasn't getting enough fuel to run, which I'm calling problem number one.

Problem number two, my valves needed to be adjusted before the trip, but I simply didn't have time to do them. Well, that's the goal for this weekend.

I guess my biggest questions that maybe you can help me with if you would, since you've got the same situation at hand are:

What kind of compression should I be getting? And what's the procedure for checking it?

Glad you got it running again man. I'm hoping to hear mine fire up this weekend.


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

The book says between 40 and 70 on a 650 but doesn't really get into details about how to do it. I remember from brp/evinrude training that you had to hold the throttle wide open while cranking. ( I tried open and closed but got the same reading)

I did mine with both plugs out, a fully charged battery and cranking for a good amount of time until the gauge needle quit rising. It took me about 4 tries of dumping mystery oil into the cylinders before the rings resealed. On the last try of cranking it would almost catch and then nothing. I figured out if I stopped spinning her over at that point and key off for a few minutes, the next time it would catch harder. Repeated that a few times and then finally she fired off and smoked like a mother effer! But the smoke has cleared and we are back in business.

Just remember to keep changing the oil too. Mine stunk of gas that leaked past the rings


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## fatkidkustomz (Aug 27, 2011)

DaveMK1 said:


> The book says between 40 and 70 on a 650 but doesn't really get into details about how to do it. I remember from brp/evinrude training that you had to hold the throttle wide open while cranking. ( I tried open and closed but got the same reading)
> 
> I did mine with both plugs out, a fully charged battery and cranking for a good amount of time until the gauge needle quit rising. It took me about 4 tries of dumping mystery oil into the cylinders before the rings resealed. On the last try of cranking it would almost catch and then nothing. I figured out if I stopped spinning her over at that point and key off for a few minutes, the next time it would catch harder. Repeated that a few times and then finally she fired off and smoked like a mother effer! But the smoke has cleared and we are back in business.
> 
> ...


Sweet. Mine's a 750, but it shouldn't be that much more compression I wouldn't think. Of course I'm going to try to get it to start after I adjust the valves and get the carbs mounted back on. But if it won't, I've got plenty of oil. 

It just seems strange to me that it would do something like that just because water gets in the cylinder. I know a lot about engines, but then again, you learn something every day. 

Thanks man!


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## rmax (Nov 21, 2009)

older pre 2012 750s have less compression than the 650i ,keep pouring oil to it an cranking ,it will come back


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Mystery oil seemed to do the trick for me. I had to pour it down the carb throats cause i kept spilling it out of the front cylinder going through the plug hole. But it made a huge mess when I cleared the cylinders!


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## 2010Bruterider (Jun 20, 2010)

I've seen that done before. He just poured the oil down the carbuerators into the cylinders. Just make sure and open the throttle so it can go by. I have used wd40 down the plug holes before on mine. It will usually make it fire on up. good luck man


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## brute power840 (Jul 17, 2013)

*newbie*

Any help would be appreciated. i am new to this hobby and recently bought an 08 brute force 840 fuel injected and love the bike. The problem is on my first ride i hydro locked my bike. I didnt know i did it until someone told me. I tried to crank it a few times before i was told i hydro locked it. So i get the bike home and proceed to flush it and get the water out the cylinders and the oil clean. Got the bike to fire up and run and it still has plenty of power. The question is what are the chances damage has been done if it is running now? Also i think i can hear something knocking in the motor but i am not sure because one the the pipes on my muzzy exhaust came loose and not sure if i am hearing that or if its a knock.


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## 2010Bruterider (Jun 20, 2010)

brute power840 said:


> Any help would be appreciated. i am new to this hobby and recently bought an 08 brute force 840 fuel injected and love the bike. The problem is on my first ride i hydro locked my bike. I didnt know i did it until someone told me. I tried to crank it a few times before i was told i hydro locked it. So i get the bike home and proceed to flush it and get the water out the cylinders and the oil clean. Got the bike to fire up and run and it still has plenty of power. The question is what are the chances damage has been done if it is running now? Also i think i can hear something knocking in the motor but i am not sure because one the the pipes on my muzzy exhaust came loose and not sure if i am hearing that or if its a knock.


It's a guarantee that damage has been done. How much damage remains to be seen. These motors dont like sand/mud/water. As far as the knocking sound, fix that exhaust first so you can hear better. Then rev the motor a little above idle and hold it. If the sound goes away, the sound is coming from your primary clutch. Brutes have noisy clutches. If the sound doesn't go away, but speeds up instead, it's a rod bearing and it's all bad.


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## brute power840 (Jul 17, 2013)

i kinda figured damage has been done just didnt know how much. i will def get the exhaust problem fixed. i think one of the springs come undone on the muzzy exhaust. Do you think it is still good for some more riding if its just the clutch? would the bike still have a lot of power if i bent a rod or damaged a piston? i thought about taking it to flynts but if it is still ride able i will just hold off.


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## 2010Bruterider (Jun 20, 2010)

I'd hold off on putting it in the shop. Like I said, if its clutch noise, it's not really a problem. If the knock is in the motor, don't ride it. It will only cause more damage. If its still got good power, you're probably fine. If the rod bearings are shot, they will seize on the crank and stop the engine eventually.


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## brute power840 (Jul 17, 2013)

the knocking noise is not constant. i can only hear it at idle and i only hear it a couple minutes apart.


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

brute power840 said:


> the knocking noise is not constant. i can only hear it at idle and i only hear it a couple minutes apart.


You should be fine, sounds like the clutch from your description. I'd take it easy until you can determine the exact location. Pop the cvt cover off but leave it plugged in and start the bike. You should hear if its the clutch or not. Just remember to leave the cover plugged in or else you'll throw a belt light 


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Update. Finished the oil flush today and after 5 changes the oil came out looking brand new. Compression is 47 front and 50 back cylinder. Overhaul avoided for now. Thanks so much mimb for your help and knowledge, y'all rock!

Working on fabricating an exhaust snorkel for my hmf performance now to stop this from happening again lol


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## fatkidkustomz (Aug 27, 2011)

Sounds like you made it out better than I'm going to. I got mine to fire for 2-3 seconds. I think it was running on the oil and not gas. 

Apparently I didn't get all the mud out of the carbs and they clogged themselves again. But I tore them down again and I'm getting my friend to take them to work and put them in his ultrasonic tank. 

I also put my hands over the carb boots while I had them off, and hit the go button. The back cylinder definitely has more vacuum than the front. 

And unfortunately for the 2-3 seconds it ran, it sounded like I have a rattle in the front head.


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Geeze I hate to hear that. Hope it's not as bad as you think it is.


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## fatkidkustomz (Aug 27, 2011)

Thanks man. Glad yours is alive and well. 

I don't think I'm gonna be lucky, but I hope I am too. All because I forgot to double check two hose clamps. Lol.

But I guess the bright side is I might finally get to tear into a V-twin. I've been in tons of single cylinders, but nothing like these motors. And I do have a good friend who's a small engines guy, so in the small chance I get lost, he can get me straight. He's already offered to do the head work if I need it and I don't want to or have time to mess with it. 

Only down side is I work 55 hours a week, commute an hour each way, and I've got to find time to get this thing right in 4 weeks. Supposed to head to WV for our annual ride up there in the mountains.


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Good luck with it and don't forget the pictures!


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## fatkidkustomz (Aug 27, 2011)

Oh there will be pictures. I'm usually good about that. They come in handy when putting things back together if you forget how it goes. 

quick question maybe someone can help me with... Can I pull the front cylinder head with the engine in the bike? Please say yes. Lol.


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## whoolieshop (Mar 22, 2011)

fatkidkustomz said:


> Oh there will be pictures. I'm usually good about that. They come in handy when putting things back together if you forget how it goes.
> 
> quick question maybe someone can help me with... Can I pull the front cylinder head with the engine in the bike? Please say yes. Lol.




Hey man, I hate to hear about your bike. I had a similar mishap at the same park! Mine happened at night and I couldn't see that the boot had come loose from the carb! Unfortunately I tried cranking mine as soon as I got towed out for a few seconds and ended up forcing mud down into the bottom end THROUGH the rings! Mud in the rings seized them to the side of the piston and it had zero compression.

Since that place is all sand the mud is very fine and slick so it gets into all kinds of places in that sort of situation. Pulling the engine out of your wheeler really isn't much harder than than trying to work on it in place. I don't know for sure if you can pull the cylinders with it in the bike... I'm going to say probably but chances are you're better off yanking the engine out and pulling them both. Once I got mine out and down I had mud on the crankshaft. It was not a pleasant experience. There are all sorts of pockets inside that can hold mud and gunk that will just end up causing you more and more problems down the road. I would advise you to pull the engine, pop the cylinders off and do a very good visual inspection. If you see any signs of mud in the crankcase you should split the cases and completely clean EVERYTHING. I don't think there's any amount of oil changes that can wash that sandy mud out of all the pockets inside an engine.


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## fatkidkustomz (Aug 27, 2011)

That's the only thing I didn't like about that place. It's a great setup, and definitely an awesome time at a reasonable price, but that sand just had me cringing at the thought of the places it was getting. 

The weekend we went it had been raining 13 out of 14 days the locals said, and they all said they had never seen it so badly flooded. I saw bikes getting towed past the camper all weekend. Unfortunately, i was one of the victims too.


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## whoolieshop (Mar 22, 2011)

Yeah we've had a ton of rain, we live three hours from busco and we had a group out there a few weekends ago. They said if you weren't snorkeled and lifted you were in trouble. You couldn't tell where ponds ended and trails began the water was something like 19 or 20 feet above flood level in that area!

There's an old barn out there where everyone goes to chill and hang out and my buddy saw a boat go by.. and that's a pretty good little trek from the river haha.


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## fatkidkustomz (Aug 27, 2011)

whoolieshop said:


> Yeah we've had a ton of rain, we live three hours from busco and we had a group out there a few weekends ago. They said if you weren't snorkeled and lifted you were in trouble. You couldn't tell where ponds ended and trails began the water was something like 19 or 20 feet above flood level in that area!
> 
> There's an old barn out there where everyone goes to chill and hang out and my buddy saw a boat go by.. and that's a pretty good little trek from the river haha.


Yeah. We're about the same distance away up in VA. They were calling for rain the rest of the week we left. We were at that barn one night and the bottom right there was full of water, but it wasn't that deep. That hill was slicker than goose turds though. Couple of kids on Recon 250s were stuck at the bottom. We had to throw them straps and pull them up.


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## fatkidkustomz (Aug 27, 2011)

UPDATE: Just like DaveMK1 said... IT'S ALIVE!!! ALIVE!!!

Took a little coaxing, but I finally got her to fire. Got the carbs back from my friend today, put them back together tonight, and hit the go button. After getting enough fuel in there to counteract all the oil, it finally thumped to life. Turns out the rattle I heard was me apparently not paying attention when I set the valves on the rear head, and they were waaaaay loose. So checked all of them again, set them in spec, and it purrs like a kitten. Sounds better than it did before I swamped it.

And holy crap what a mess. I did have enough sense to point the back of the bike towards one of the open garage doors, but I didn't have enough sense to roll it back so the pipe was outside. The floor was covered in oil. And I also didn't have enough sense to move my tools out from behind it... so those will never rust. Lol.

Now, a couple more oil changes just to ease my mind, and it's time to ride again. Thanks again for all the help guys.


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Awesome! Glad to hear it!! 


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Thought we were out of the woods until I fired it up Saturday. Once she warmed up it started bellowing blue smoke and not clearing up. Time to crack this walnut open and throw some rings and valve seals at her.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2013)

Do you have a catch can or siphon break. Check plenum for oil.

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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Yup got a catch can, haven't looked at it yet. I'm sure if I'm getting blow by past the rings ill have some oil residue in the lines


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2013)

Well compression past the rings forcing the oil out thru vent plus oil slipping past rings into cylinder. That sucks. Good luck man!

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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Thanks, I'm actually really excited about doing it!


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## fatkidkustomz (Aug 27, 2011)

I hope you're not jinxing me Dave. Lol. I did let mine run for a while and rode it up and down the street easy (except one 60mph pass I couldn't resist). It was smoking, but I was just chalking it up to the stuff sitting in the pipe. I'm planning on riding this weekend so hopefully it'll clear up all the way.


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Hope so bud. I had planned on tearing it apart this winter anyways but another deciding factor is the leak in my front cylinder that I'm starting to believe is a head gasket. 


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## fatkidkustomz (Aug 27, 2011)

Ouch... that sucks man. But if you're like me, you'll complain the whole time about doing it, even though you secretly love it and you're having fun. Hope everything goes smooth for you.


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Thanks. New parts will be in tomorrow and gonna start this weekend. Got a wiseco top end kit with new pistons coming. Just a stock rebuild nothing crazy. Gonna send my hmf back to them and have them re core it too.


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Well gotta delay the overhaul. Ups dropped off what I thought was new pistons, base and head gaskets, rings and valve seals but guess what?

It's only one piston and rings, 2 sets of base and head gaskets, and one set of circlips. Mother effer I'm p/o right now. It sure is cute tho. Stay away from bike bandit.com

Even the description said pistons, plural. Not piston, singular. Dealing with customer service now.


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Started the tear down today. Figured while Im waiting on the pistons to come in I can start going through everything. The motor came apart alot easier than I expected. Does anyone have the part number for the o-rings on the oil tube that goes in the heads and also the o-rings for the choke plungers?

I was amazed at how good the internals looked on this bike. Granted I have low miles and low hours but still. Looks like it's barely broken in.

I'll pull valves tomorrow and blue the seats to see how bad they are.


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

more pics


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Got everything back together today! Runs great and no leaks or noises. Was a lot of fun but I am gonna invent a ring compressor for these motors and make a fortune lol. What a pita getting the jugs down over the rings!

I owe mimb a lot of thanks and rmax a case of beer for answering all my questions. I know he was probably getting sick of my texts lol


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## fatkidkustomz (Aug 27, 2011)

DaveMK1 said:


> Got everything back together today! Runs great and no leaks or noises. Was a lot of fun but I am gonna invent a ring compressor for these motors and make a fortune lol. What a pita getting the jugs down over the rings!
> 
> I owe mimb a lot of thanks and rmax a case of beer for answering all my questions. I know he was probably getting sick of my texts lol
> 
> ...


Glad to hear it man! I got lucky with mine, the smoking cleared up and she's been running great. Unfortunately I'm dealing with a snapped off belt cover bolt now. Turned a simple belt and spring install into a nightmare. 

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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Glad you got her going brother. I would of rather dealt with a broken cvt cover bolt then a top end job lol 


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

More pics of the rebuild


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

and more, little man wanted to help so I let him do the hard stuff


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## xwildat72 (Feb 24, 2013)

I always kee

---------- Post added at 11:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 PM ----------

I always keep some tranny fluid in the truck on rides where I know there is gonna be some water my wife is bad bout drowning her grizz out. After u drain the oil and get that part good to go pour some tranny fluid down the throttle body it works wonders. People look at u like ur an idiot blowing out all that smoke but its done me right so far


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## rmax (Nov 21, 2009)

no problem for me bud, wish i had known you needed a ring compressor you could have borrowed mine


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## Sallzy (Nov 25, 2012)

The guys on this site really kick ***. Almost everyone here will help you out. I had a ton of fun rebuilding my motor. I just wish it hadn't took so long. Like someone else mentioned, between work, travel, hunny do list, kid duties and it doesn't leave a lot of time to wrench. These motors are a blast to mess with and after boring mine out to 840cc with HC pistons and stage 1 cams HOLY chit!!!!!!this thing rips!!!! I can't imagine what bigger cams, a stroker crank and head work would give you. Christ, mine pulls like a freight train now. And some of these crazy people even hook NOS to these.


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## Brute 840 (Feb 9, 2012)

looks like it turned out good for you and yes nitrous makes them Rip,this is one of my old brutes I had,it ran pretty good for a small bore 698

Brute on NOS - YouTube


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## Big D (Jun 23, 2009)

:bigeyes: Holy :bigeyes:


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Holy shat!!!!! Told my wife when her sra finally craps out we are building hers to take nitrous lol


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## Sallzy (Nov 25, 2012)

All right now come on guys. Why in the hell do you need that kinda speed? These things must get real squirrelly at that speed. I know, stupid question. Low end grunt I get. Mach 3 with flames out your *** I'm just not understanding. But hey, to each their own.


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