# the chit-chat on clutching thread



## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

Is there anyone on here that has stock Brute Force 750 weights? If so can you weigh them? Some on HL are saying they weigh Sixty grams...but the one I have weighed only were only 52 grams...I could be wrong but I ordered some new ones from Kawie for a guy and they were 52 grams.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Bootlegger said:


> Is there anyone on here that has stock Brute Force 750 weights? If so can you weigh them? Some on HL are saying they weigh Sixty grams...but the one I have weighed only were only 52 grams...I could be wrong but I ordered some new ones from Kawie for a guy and they were 52 grams.


When I went back to my stock weights from the EPIs I weighed them and as I recall, my stocks were 52 or 53 grams. The EPIs were like 2 grams less then the stocks...so I think you are right...they sure were not 60 grams...at least not on my 06.


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

Ill get some weights later if I can find a scale in one of these labs in the engineering building if isnt locked


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

nmkawierider said:


> When I went back to my stock weights from the EPIs I weighed them and as I recall, my stocks were 52 or 53 grams. The EPIs were like 2 grams less then the stocks...so I think you are right...they sure were not 60 grams...at least not on my 06.


Mine 52.1 when I weighted them...but some are saying 58. I could be wrong...I don't care to admit it if I am though...lol. But I wonder why some weigh 52 and others 58???


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## derk (Nov 24, 2009)

I can weigh mine this weekend when i take my stock weights out of my 650i. Should be the same as a 750?


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## drtyTshrt (May 27, 2009)

I weighed mine when we talked about this a week or so ago and they weighed 52 grams.


Originally Posted by *Bootlegger*  
_Stock Brute Force 750i weights are 52 grams....I think some of the earlier 05 models has 50 gram. I just checked with Kawie...well actually I called work and had them call and check. All the "I" Models are the same._

I just measured my stock weights and Boot is correct they weighed 52 grams


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

Yes..they are the same as a 750....

dryTshrt.....I knew you did...but they are saying on HL that they are 58....I may be wrong and If I am .....all the time I have spent is wasted.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

*Ok...I just emailed Adam at Quad shop customs...he is the clutching guru. This is what he said word for word......so I guess are both right.

*


> Depending on the year. Some had wider bases where pins go through of setting the weight a few grms. So guess both are right. The functional (profile portion and tip weight) part are the same between each set.


I do know that the 05-07 and the 08-10 are different in one part. One is bushed and one is NON bushed...can't remember which...I would have to look on EPI's site.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Bootlegger said:


> *Ok...I just emailed Adam at Quad shop customs...he is the clutching guru. This is what he said word for word......so I guess are both right.*
> 
> 
> 
> I do know that the 05-07 and the 08-10 are different in one part. One is bushed and one is NON bushed...can't remember which...I would have to look on EPI's site.


My stock 06s are bushed. The EPIs that came with the kit I took back out were not. They wore into the pins so... new pins and back to the stock weights I went. Just put in a new belt today and serviced the clutches. No wear on the new pins after 400 miles.


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## Guarino113 (Oct 3, 2009)

my 07 stock weights are 58g. i just weighted them. and they are bushed. it is strange that some are 52 and some are 58.


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## AMR840 (Feb 15, 2010)

58.5 grams on the 05's


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## Guarino113 (Oct 3, 2009)

thats crazy cuz epi only sells up to 58g for 05-07


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## the grizzly muder (Dec 24, 2009)

i got the 09 010 epi magazine it has them for 60grams


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## Polaris425 (Dec 16, 2004)

maybe the bushings are whats making the difference in grams not the actual weight itself?


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## Guarino113 (Oct 3, 2009)

i got the mag also. the 05-07 is only up to 58g and the 08-09 is up to 60g. they are both bushed so i dont think that has to do with the weight.


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## AMR840 (Feb 15, 2010)

Pretty sure the brute weights on the 05-07 are all 58.5 grams including the prairies. The V-force weights are 54 grams. The profile of the weight will change the weight needed also. What comes to mind is heal-clickers are only 51 grams. 

I found this on the Dalton site and may explain why we have confusion.

"The DPK series does not fit the '08 BF 750 model or the Teryx utility. These models use a new improved drive clutch on the engine." 

So machines above 2008 have a different style weight.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

I weighted my stockers again and they are 52....not sure why...I was wrong and I hope I did not steer anyone wrong. I am VERY if I have...I am not going to help with clutch weights anymore. Sorry Guys!


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

I myself think kawi has some messed up tolerences on there weights some are 58 some are 52 and they are suppose to be something else. by comparing my stocks to epi 54 the stocks look like they should be heavier. Ill see what I can find out tmrw.

I really cant explain how different people can weigh weights that are suppose to be the same and them be 6g difference.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

I want to same I am sorry if I have steered anyone wrong with the weights. i just went by what mine weights on two different scales at 52. Then some others on here said that is what theirs was as well...which I am sure theirs was. 

I wasted 4 LONG days of testing with weights then to find out it was wasted sucks. If I have steered anyone wrong I want to be the first to say I am TRULY SORRY!!!! I had mine weighted at the post office and sure enough...52 grams...WTF! Not sure why though....but that is what I went off of and I was WRONG!!....bottom line. I feel like a idiot....and I sure hope I didn't cause anyone to waste any money. I do know the stiffer primary's preform better with 54 gram weights. I am not going to help out with clutches anymore....just stick to jetting. I know I can do that...lol

but again...SORRY to anyone that I steered wrong.

Bootlegger


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

I think your being to hard on your self. 

It makes sense that they would be heavier than the v force but that still doesnt explain why so many have weighed theirs to get 52g and kawi SAYS thats what there suppose to be. But then you have others that say theirs weighed 58g

i would like to hear an explanation from some body


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

Brute650i said:


> I think your being to hard on your self.
> 
> It makes sense that they would be heavier than the v force but that still doesnt explain why so many have weighed theirs to get 52g and kawi SAYS thats what there suppose to be. But then you have others that say theirs weighed 58g
> 
> i would like to hear an explanation from some body


Me Too! I even called out Tech rep at work and he told me 52...that is why I was so sure....but if I am starting to wonder if some are different. 

I have been off all week cause of snow since I teach school...so I have been trying to jet a few bikes from work to make some extra race money....I jetted a 07 750i today and the FACTORY jets were bigger in front and smaller in rear...and this carb had never been touched...they were the factory sizes as well....just crossed up maybe :thinking: He said if ran ok...but not too like if did after I finished jetting it. I have never seen one like that.


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

maybe some of the weights are getting put in the wrong bikes are any of the other bikes 58g

brutes/prairies are 52/58

vforce are 54

360 are 50? or maybe 52 and the brutes are suppose to be 58? 

That tis the question?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

I just wish I know why some are different....cause I was the only one ever in my clutch and they OEM's were 52...I am so confused...lol


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

Could pm vforcejon and see what he says about some being 58g, some being 52g, and kawi saying they all should be 52g


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Bootlegger said:


> I weighted my stockers again and they are 52....not sure why...I was wrong and I hope I did not steer anyone wrong. I am VERY if I have...I am not going to help with clutch weights anymore. Sorry Guys!


Don't feel bad because I get the same thing. What do you use to weigh yours?


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

nmkawierider said:


> Don't feel bad because I get the same thing. What do you use to weigh yours?


A digital scale.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Bootlegger said:


> A digital scale.


And I just use something the wife has in the kitchen...same thing. I wonder if others are adding the pin in to get this 58gs. I did hear that two might be a different weight then the other two. I never weighed all of the stocks to see if there was a difference...just one.


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## phreebsd (Dec 16, 2004)

the shape of the weight has to do with it as well. 
2 weights both eqaul to 54 grams can perform differently. 
depending on where most of the mass is from the pin it rides on, the pressure is different. weight more to the tip, more force., weight closer in to the pin the weight rides on, the less. The rotational mass is identical in both instances.


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## drtyTshrt (May 27, 2009)

52 grams boot thats my story and I'm sticking to it. as long as I know what I have in my bike and how it works. You need to issue a disclaimer if you give advise 

" these test have been preformed on a wheeler that may or may not give you the same results,but they work for me."


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## Guarino113 (Oct 3, 2009)

i weighed mine on a digital scale and the kind where u move the weights or whatever. Got 58 on the digital and 58.4 on the other. I weighed only the weight. And all four of them. It prolly does have something to do with where the weight is.


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## bump530 (Jan 5, 2009)

im not sure about how much they weigh, but the 08+ 750 weights are wider where the pins goes through. when my buddy bought his brute (the one i had) he ordered a clutch kit and it was for the older brutes. for some reason, when he noticed the weights were different, he just installed them anyways. when i got the bike, i took them out and put the stock weights back in since they were the correct size.


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## AMR840 (Feb 15, 2010)

Vforcejohn will soon have custom weights and springs for big tires and drag racers. His weights will be 1 set that will range from 52-60 grams adjustable. He also has custom springs being made up with higher shiftouts ranging from 180-260 or so. 
This is good news for all of us. He will also have the wider weights for the new brutes and teryx. 
VFJ can also answer any questions on what stock weights weigh.


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

yeah ive been waiting to see what kind of price tag it carries along with it.


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

Good news and bad news 

Good news is I weighed mine. 

Bad news is the Avg of the 4 it was 58.6 g 

This really answers nothing except kawi has problems somewhere in there weight dept.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

We had another snow day so I went into the shop here to jet a bike for a guy. I called again to talk to our Service/Tech Rep....he was not available so I ask to speak to another guy. He said there were some bike out there the weights could possibly be different...I was like Ok....which ones? He said not really sure, but it was 05-07 carb models. He said all the EFI bikes were suppose to be 58 but previous year models some were different. He also said some of the 05 750's did have 52 grams and some Two-Thousand Six models did too. It was due to a different manufacture making them. He said those bike it would not hurt performance it would actually help to some extent...so they were left. He said that is what he was told a year or so ago because he had a few calls about the same questions.

I hope this helps answer our questions. 

He also said that lighter weights will let the bike tach more RPM's before shift out on stiffer primary springs and it would make the stall seem higher due to not as much weights pushing in on the spring to make it shift out at a Quicker rate. He said that is why the kits come with lighter weights to help with RPM's. It does make sense if you think about it. If you have a heavier weight it will push harder on the spring and the bike won't have as much stall because it engages faster. I hope this helps... some. He said that is why most bike seem better with 54 & Fifty-Six gram weights.

Gotta get back to work...almost done with this baby...I think I got it jetted right the first time....:rockn:


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

Yeah I wonder how much better mine will rev with the 54 as opposed to the 58.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

not sure....but like everything else...take it for what its worth...LOL! It makes sense but I have heard so much different stuff. I am taking the demo brute home this evening...lol. There is a few things I wanna find out for myself.


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## AMR840 (Feb 15, 2010)

Brute650i said:


> Yeah I wonder how much better mine will rev with the 54 as opposed to the 58.


IF you know what rpms you reached peak hp on the dyno, that's what I try and hold as long as possible. Eventually the belt will reach full shiftout and rpm's will raise as hp drops. You still gain speed but have lost a lot of power. Thats why it takes so much longer going from 60-70 than it did 20-30 mph during the peak hp range. Most machines are making peak at 7,200-7800 rpms 20-30 mph. Even my 840 peaked at 7,800 rpms. Ideally if I you can keep that 7,800 across the pit or drag strip you will be much faster. 
One reason many like the higher stall spring like a orange\blue for racing is it gets you to peak hp faster than some other springs. 

I'm no clutch expert by any means but a non cut sheave clutch may over rev with light weights and you may get out of your peak hp range very fast. The vfj and JHmachine clutch's make the weights act heavier than they are so going with 54's will be like running 58's. 
Hope this makes some sense.


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## Metal Man (Dec 17, 2008)

Brute650i said:


> Yeah I wonder how much better mine will rev with the 54 as opposed to the 58.


You really need a tach to know whats going on.

You need to find the RPM at which your getting the most power and try to keep it in that range for the longest time. With too light of weights your just gonna over rev. Its sounds cool but may slow you down over all.

With the HP your running i would think you would be able to run a heaver weight then a lot of folks. The heaver weights in combination with the right springs would allow the belt to shift out faster. With the extra HP your running you could most likely handle a faster shift out then a stock bike and have the power to pull it,and not bog down.

But like i said to start with. You really need a tach to know whats going on.

This is not fact.Just a theory in my head. I have no big HP motor to test any of this.

Of coarse those big laws your running change every thing..lol


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

Makes good sense. I understand a little bit about clutching for racing but not much. I guess we will see next weekend I wish I had another primary so I wouldn't have to take the time to change the weights. 

How hard should the pins that hold weights in be to remove I about never got mine out. You could definitely tell I had left in the weather I few times. 

I know I need to decide which way I wanna go. Its hard trying to clutch for big tires and stock size for racing at the same time.


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## AMR840 (Feb 15, 2010)

Pins should slide right out but some get corroded.
On primary clutching race and mudding I think would be the same on set up. Orange/blue will give some stall and get those big tires rolling quicker. The secondary spring will hurt top end if you go with anything other than a stock brute spring. 
Just get a second machine one for mud and one for drags and trail riding. LOL


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

I have a great race set up....IMO...the 54 gram weights Red Primary and Red secondary is Good. You can't use a stock spring for mud racing....not enough on the low side.


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

54g weights epi orange primary and almond secondary. I don't think the almond is going to be light enough for 300' drags without topping out before the finish. 

You said you had a .800 overdrive on your fundy 750. What was too speed with it? And was that overdrive just machined into the cover or was that taken off the sheaves


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## wood butcher (May 11, 2009)

yea don't stop helpin just cuz kawi is screwed up


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## AMR840 (Feb 15, 2010)

Top speed was 81-82 range. Take .080 out of the cover 4 spots to clear spider arms.
Then on both sheaves cut .015 off each bottom of sheave where they close more. There already is a .050 gap this gives you the .080 overdrive. Works very well 

Any machine shop can do the cut. Should be less than 75 dollars. VFJ will also do it if requested. I actually prefer it because the bottom rpm's stay up versus the spider mode cut. 

If you remember the Dalton billet cover comes with the .050 cut in the 4 spots already to take advantage of the .050 gap. The cover cost a lot and does not give full belt travel so the .080 cut is better.


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

I have a stock cover now that has been cut with .100 reliefs cut in it. I would like to get the inside sheaves cut some but the last machine shop I went to to get something done and they said $100 just to set up then plus labor and material. I politely said f off and have a nice day.


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## AMR840 (Feb 15, 2010)

All you need is bottom of sheaves cut .025 to match .10 cover. I was told .080 was all the belt travel you can get. This was from Ray at Fundy.


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

this is a copy of an email from when I was talking to jim



> Thats fine I have no problem with that but you need to make sure you are getting full shift out if you took over .060 off the sheaves and the bushing boss will need cut down along with the inner ribbing and your clearence slots will need widened ...the new bushing we have allows all this as its not as wide. But you should have no problems strong wise on that cover and nice job ...Jh


this thread has ran its course and has now turned into the chit chat thread for clutching.

This is what my cover looks like.


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## wood butcher (May 11, 2009)

there u go Brent i change the thread title, just for u bud.


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## the grizzly muder (Dec 24, 2009)

maybe kawi found out that something was wrong in the wieghts so they changed them up to fix the proplem


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

wood butcher said:


> yea don't stop helpin just cuz kawi is screwed up


Thanks Wood Butcher....but I just feel like an idiot in a way....lol. I HATE that I told Guarino113 to go with Fifty-Six gram weights and now he bought two 54 and two Fifty-Six which would be 55 gram....and now he is selling them. I mean I feel VERY bad like I gave him bad advice. I have brought the Demo Brute home today...I am starting early in the morning with some stuff. Those weights he bought I think would really help his bike though. I did take the weights outta it this evening and weighted them...its an 09 and he stock ones are 58 grams. I got the spring combo's figured out...but these weights are aggravating me since all the testing I did was based off my stock 52 gram ones. I will figure out what works good this weekend. I have all weekend to do it...:rockn: I have helped a lot on here with spring combo's that they loved...but one way or another I will figure out these weights....its killing me right now...lol. I can't stand not knowing and the thought of telling someone something that was incorrect about them. Right now I am just :disappointed: and hope that Guarino113 is not mad about it. I hope he does try them though...I think he will be surprised at how they will help.



the grizzly muder said:


> maybe kawi found out that something was wrong in the wieghts so they changed them up to fix the proplem


I don't think there was a problem they just wanted more belt grip on the primary.


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## FABMAN (Dec 18, 2008)

Any one going to do a clutch needs to read this book. I have the old one made in 1979 and it shined the light on allot of stuff. It's a really cool book.


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## 15brute (Jan 24, 2010)

Boot, Dont get down on yourself, you gave me alot of good advice and now my bike is better than ever. I didnt have a clue what to do and through a few posts and PM's I got my clutch done and for a fraction of the cost of buying a kit and having someone do it for me. For what I saved, I can buy many more springs and weights and play with it til I get it just right. I like mine just fine the way it is, I'm sure I could squeeze a bit more out with some trial and error but without the advice you gave me, I would be lost so I thank you!


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## Guarino113 (Oct 3, 2009)

im not mad mark. i dont get mad at stuff like that. if noone buys them ill try them. i was just reading bout the stall and i dont really want any more with the lighter weights. thats the only reason. i know i havent really tried them out but i also havent really tried the new springs since im waiting on that part for the water pump so i can ride it.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

15brute said:


> Boot, Dont get down on yourself, you gave me alot of good advice and now my bike is better than ever. I didnt have a clue what to do and through a few posts and PM's I got my clutch done and for a fraction of the cost of buying a kit and having someone do it for me. For what I saved, I can buy many more springs and weights and play with it til I get it just right. I like mine just fine the way it is, I'm sure I could squeeze a bit more out with some trial and error but without the advice you gave me, I would be lost so I thank you!


Thanks Man....



Guarino113 said:


> im not mad mark. i dont get mad at stuff like that. if noone buys them ill try them. i was just reading bout the stall and i dont really want any more with the lighter weights. thats the only reason. i know i havent really tried them out but i also havent really tried the new springs since im waiting on that part for the water pump so i can ride it.


On the Almond it won't....It's not really noticeable until you get up to the Gold & Red Primary. IMO...you have one of the best spring set ups out there for the riding you do.


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