# Replacement Engine output shaft Seals....



## Polaris425

SO. I talked to a company today, about making a replacement seal for us, since kawi wont step up and make something that dont leak like a shot up duck boat. The guy I talked to seems to think it wont be a problem, and said they have several similar seals that sell for around $17. SO Depending on what design we come up with, they could be as cheap as $15-$20 and you wont be having to replace them all the time. Would basically be the same thing only better material. However, if the design I _want_ them to make will actually work, they might end up costing a little more, but again, it would be a product that would be 100x better than the crap that is in there.... I have an apointment to talk to the Head Engineer tomorrow about which design would be better... I will update this thread accordingly.....


:rockn:

So vote, would you buy a better seal and pay a little more for it, if you knew you most likely wont have to replace it but once every few years...?


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## bump530

heck yes....ill pay a lil more to have a better seal.


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## GWNBrute

I would pay more for better seals, but could it be possble to get those up to canada for us cold blooded type?


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## Polaris425

GWNBrute said:


> I would pay more for better seals, but could it be possble to get those up to canada for us cold blooded type?


yeah shipping might just be a little more... They are actually closer to you than me


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## GWNBrute

That would e great!! The way I see it if I break or blow something I like to replace it with a better part. 

Will have to get details as this unfolds


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## HeadC1

I'd be interested to see how well it works, I've noticed wear on the shaft itself and I don't know if a different seal is going to fix the problem. But please get them to make me some different differential seals.


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## Kurly

Im wit ya


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## phreebsd

HeadC1 said:


> I'd be interested to see how well it works, I've noticed wear on the shaft itself and I don't know if a different seal is going to fix the problem. But please get them to make me some different differential seals.


this was my concern. the shaft being the problem.
Ive not changed mine yet so I havent seen them. I'm hoping most of the leaks are on the outside of the seal and not the inside.


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## bump530

alot of the wear is on the shaft. we have an idea for a solution, we just havent had it done yet. our idea, along wit a better seal. it should last a while


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## IBBruin

Is it a single lip seal with only one lip facing the oil or is it a double lip seal with one lip facing in and one lip facing out?


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## Polaris425

IBBruin said:


> Is it a single lip seal with only one lip facing the oil or is it a double lip seal with one lip facing in and one lip facing out?


the stock? its just 1 - 8mm wide lip


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## Metal Man

I voted yes!! Anything better then what we have now would be a welcome change.

I don't know were the problem comes from but i know it's real. My old AC 400 has over 3000 miles on it and the rear seal just started leaking.Actually a better word would be seeping.It's yet to leak any on the skid plate below it. The front seal is still good.

My Brutes rear seal was leaking at the 100 mile mark.:rant:


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## kawa650

Im for it, I just changed mine again last weekend, I think it was the 5th time!!!


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## Polaris425

OOOK.... I talked to the engineer today. WOW.. Where to start.

So we talked about what all could be affecting the seal and actually making it leak is it 
The sand/grit that eats at it, 
Is it just cheap material that doesnt hold up, 
Is the problem not actually all the seal, but the amount of pressure that builds up in the bottom of the motor from the oil heating and expanding, enough to push it past the edge of the seal?

If the last one is the case, then there are other ways to solve the problem like simply running a better oil. I know that running Royal Purple in mine, my seals don't leak near as bad as I've heard some of you say... I've heard guys say they have full out oil puddles on the floor at times... While mine does leak, it doesn't leak to the extent that I have to add oil or clean my floor after it sits a week or 2. 

He said that he would be more than happy to take a look at the seal and the shaft and see what he can come up with, but if the problem is not the seal, but the pressure, than even a GOOD seal could still possibly leak a little bit, b/c of the pressure buildling up behind the seal. So here's what we have to do, we need to get to the bottom of the problem and find out exactly what is causing the leaks, cheap material, or something more than that....


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## HeadC1

If a better seal can keep the grit from getting b/n it and the shaft then we may not have a problem with wear on the shaft. Too bad that means most of us would need new shafts.


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## Polaris425

So the main problem is grit getting between the shaft and the seal and the grit eating away at the seal, creating the leak?

One of their designs uses dual rubber seals inside the metal housing, that will flex w/ the movement of the shaft and not separate to let oil out, or grit in. Problem is there needs to be lubricant between the seals in our application which would mean having to put some good quality grease between them before installing, but I dont think that would be a problem... The outside has rubber o-rings. This is the seal they use on the inside of axles, I'm thinking that something similar to this could work.


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## HeadC1

Not sure, just an idea

I just checked bikebandit and that shaft is $175 plus you would probably want to replace the bearing when you did it


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## Coolwizard

Polaris425 said:


> So the main problem is grit getting between the shaft and the seal and the grit eating away at the seal, creating the leak?


I don't think that's the main problem because mine leaked with less than 200 miles and it really hadn't been ridden hard or in any mud at that time.


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## HeadC1

We had an idea of grinding a groove around the shaft where the seal rides and then having welded up with stainless rod and cut back down to original diameter. This should give the seal a better surface to ride on. Add a better seal and you should have no problem. Of course this is a lot of work (time). Sure would be nice if we could just go to a better seal and maybe we can.


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## bump530

the problem IMO is either the seal is eating at the shaft, or grit is gettin into the seal and eating at the shaft. either way, the shaft is getting worn down. i have hurd of someone cleanin the seal really good after each ride and not having a problem anymore.


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## AUbruterider

With almost 1400 miles on mine now - I've yet to replace the seal. Now I have had it leak a time or two but I've found that if you clean the area real good - this will stop the leaking. I personally think grit is gettin lodge between the seal and prop shaft or between the seal and casing - causing it to leak. I've said this several times but I've never had someone but no one seems to try the same thing - they just replace it...
I've done this with 4 brutes and havent replaced a rear seal yet and they have stopped leaking - so now I just automatically clean it real good after every ride. 
I could be wrong here but this is my experience. 
But I'd like to hear from some others as well. If you've got a leaking seal right now - go out and try this. Spray it down real good with some degreaser then take a toothbrush or something similiar and clean it real good then hit it with some high pressure water and let us know... 

By the way - I vote for a better seal for everyone that continues to buy them!


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## phreebsd

Coolwizard said:


> I don't think that's the main problem because mine leaked with less than 200 miles and it really hadn't been ridden hard or in any mud at that time.


my specualtion is the formulation of the material.
It either:

doesnt expand when it gets hot but the metal it is sittin in will just enough to let grit in between seal and case
seal shrinks up and let's grit in on sides
i cant tell exactly where mine is leaking.. around shaft or around outside.

Front Seal (much worse than rear)











Rear Seal


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## Muddy Brute Force

Maybe this wont work, but I will throw the idea out there anyway, and ya'll can give your input on what you think. The idea I have would maybe using some type of sealed bearing, it might would make it a pain to replace, but at least with it being sealed, we wouldn't have to replace them as often as we do now.... Just a thought.


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## FABMAN

IBBruin said:


> Is it a single lip seal with only one lip facing the oil or is it a double lip seal with one lip facing in and one lip facing out?


It is a double lip seal. 

Something else to consider is an oil sling-er. It is a washer like thing that's on the shaft that well it slings the oil away from the seal before it gets there inside the engine right before the seal. iv seen these on car engines on the crank.

Also to consider is a lager dust seal type. you'll see these on trucks like my 95 1500 4x4 on the transfer case out put (rear drive shaft).


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## FABMAN

Polaris425 said:


> OOOK.... I talked to the engineer today. WOW.. Where to start.
> 
> 
> So we talked about what all could be affecting the seal and actually making it leak is it
> 
> The sand/grit that eats at it,
> Is it just cheap material that doesnt hold up,
> *Is the problem not actually all the seal, but the amount of pressure that builds up in the bottom of the motor* from the oil heating and expanding, enough to push it past the edge of the seal?
> If the last one is the case, then there are other ways to solve the problem like simply running a better oil. I know that running Royal Purple in mine, my seals don't leak near as bad as I've heard some of you say... I've heard guys say they have full out oil puddles on the floor at times... While mine does leak, it doesn't leak to the extent that I have to add oil or clean my floor after it sits a week or 2.
> 
> He said that he would be more than happy to take a look at the seal and the shaft and see what he can come up with, but if the problem is not the seal, but the pressure, than even a GOOD seal could still possibly leak a little bit, b/c of the pressure buildling up behind the seal. So here's what we have to do, we need to get to the bottom of the problem and find out exactly what is causing the leaks, cheap material, or something more than that....


#3 This is what I'm thinking. But not the oil heating and expanding part.

I think its due to a poor crankcase breather!! That's way I did the crankcase vent mod!! But I need more time for testing iv only had this done for the winter and did not replace the seals yet to see if it would slow down or stop completely or stay the same. It seemed to slow down so now I'm going to replace the seals and go from there.

The reason I'm thinking this is because my EXH valve seals popped off and iv herd some other people having them pop off too. The only way they can just pop off is by excessive crankcase pressure!! that's way I chose to do both valve-cover vents. not one! That way they will work together relieving the pressure.


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## Mud Narc

I was told by our local dealer that it was from the water and grit. Im not sure what causes it but changing these things is almost like filling up with gas before riding.


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## walker

maybe cleaning it will make a difference .. that seal is leaking again on mine and it only has 64 hrs on it


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## cheapthrills

70 hours and my second set of seals is leaking again, big yes to pay more for better seals. Is there how to replace seals on this form?


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## Yesterday

should be in a couple days, stay tuned.


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## phreebsd

Hopefully i will get the video made tomorrow. i got new seals in and will be replacing them both.

Here's what the seals look like new


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## FABMAN

hay you got an exh leak? the blue gasket.


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## phreebsd

yep. on the rear. I ordered a crush gasket too.
I tried to reuse the one on there but the darn thing is still leaking. this oughta resolve that problemo.


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## Brute1986

let us know if it helps i would love to buy one to see if it helps me out thanks


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## phreebsd

Brute1986 said:


> let us know if it helps i would love to buy one to see if it helps me out thanks


which one? oil seal or exhaust gasket?


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## boogieandbride

phreebsd,

If you dont get the video, at least take pics removing the shaft. While I was at the Nats, I tried to change mine but coulnd't get my Output Shaft to move.


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## Brute650i

I have gotta change both of mine, just found that out today.


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## phreebsd

boogieandbride said:


> phreebsd,
> 
> If you dont get the video, at least take pics removing the shaft. While I was at the Nats, I tried to change mine but coulnd't get my Output Shaft to move.


i got it in the vid. just loosen all the rubber cup things. They kinda prevent it from collapsing easily. Once they're undone not much for at all is needed.


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## Yesterday

check out my sexy rear seal


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## TEXAN AVIATOR

A guy at Woodlands Custom atv told me that they have a "special seal" some company in cali makes and it's better and won't leak. If I talk to him again I'll get details... But he said they use it in the mudbog bike and in a year it has yet to leak and it stays muddy and gets abused... But the seal company that built it went out of biz.


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## Bootlegger

I replaced all of mine before the CMR race on March 14th. Both Front ones are still fine. My problem is the stinking rear one.....Brand New and Installed correctly.... I run the bike a total of about 10 miles at most and the rear is leaking again.....I am going to have to replace it. The first one lasted 700 miles though. I have seen this at working at the Dealer time & time again with the rear seal. I have seen some leak after a about 10 miles like mine......put a ANOTHER new one in and its good to go....Johhny one of our Mechanics who has been with us about 22 years said ever since the Brute Came out in 05 he has seen this. He think some seals are good and some are bad. Just crap material IMO.


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## Muddy Brute Force

You know, since the seals on the Brutes have been failing so easy and quickly, seems like Kawasaki would do a recall on the output shaft seals for the Brutes. I checked mine yesterday evening and the front diff seal is leaking a little, but the front and rear seal on the motor is fine and I have a little over 1000 miles on my Brute.


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## phreebsd

TEXAN AVIATOR said:


> A guy at Woodlands Custom atv told me that they have a "special seal" some company in cali makes and it's better and won't leak. If I talk to him again I'll get details... But he said they use it in the mudbog bike and in a year it has yet to leak and it stays muddy and gets abused... But the seal company that built it went out of biz.


Ah i remember this. I pm'd you about this a while back.
i think his name was Chad.


Looks like in P's pic it might be leaking around the plate to get into the bevel gear.. I know there's an o-ring in there.
Anyone had any leakage around that area?


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## Bootlegger

Muddy Brute Force said:


> You know, since the seals on the Brutes have been failing so easy and quickly, seems like Kawasaki would do a recall on the output shaft seals for the Brutes. I checked mine yesterday evening and the front diff seal is leaking a little, but the front and rear seal on the motor is fine and I have a little over 1000 miles on my Brute.


:agreed: I work for a Kawasaki & Suzuki Dealer....I have called and talk to them ALOT of times..... They are usually good about stuff...I think they just do not wanna fool with it. I told them it was a VERY spread out problem....I told them that if they would look around on the internet forums they could actually see what was happening in the real world....not on their little test ride area. If they would just listen to the people who actually ride them they would/could make better improvements. If its possible for me to give out the techs email I will post it...then everyone that has a Brute Force can email them with REAL WORLD problems. I will ask my owner this evening when I go to work if I can do that....:rockn: Maybe if we fill their inbox full EVERYDAY they will listen.


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## Polaris425

Works for me!


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## bump530

mine is already leakin again after i got back from Nats and i changed it before i went.


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## phreebsd

yer shaft must have some pitting or something on it.
got to be. DId u check it while the seal was off?


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## bump530

yeah my shaft is a lil worn. oh well aint nothing but a thing. i thought i tried to slide it a lil further back so i didnt ride onthat part, but i guess i didnt


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## Bootlegger

After I get back from the May 2nd race at Wilborns in Bama I am going to replace it again....

Phreebsd....you got any vids of the rear seal being changed???


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## phreebsd

not yet. i cleaned it really good like 3 or 4 weeks ago with toothbrush and degreaser. the rear just stopped leaking. 
the front i tried it on but was too far gone i guess. 
i will make a video changing that one when the time comes unless someone beats me to it.


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## Metal Man

Is this new seal still in the works?


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## Yesterday

dang that reminds me:

rear seal replaced just before last weekends' slumlord ride, got home, leakin again. imagine that


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## Metal Man

Yeah i got check mine too. I did notice i managed to knock one of my drive shaft boots lose.


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## phreebsd

BigP said:


> dang that reminds me:
> 
> rear seal replaced just before last weekends' slumlord ride, got home, leakin again. imagine that


 
do the work yourself next time. they probably just cleaned it and told you to come get it then charged kawasaki for the seal, oil and 4 hours of labor.


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## Metal Man

The rear seal is the easiest one to change.


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## Yesterday

yeah but i was also worried about that other o ring that they "checked"


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## Polaris425

Metal Man said:


> Is this new seal still in the works?


not really. seemed like a lot more work than I thought and it wasnt going to be cheap. They wanted me to buy some shafts & seals & send to them for fitment.


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## 88rxn/a

ya know, i been wondering where my oil has been going....


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## Yesterday

better check them seals before its too late. check your airbox for oil too


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## 88rxn/a

i replaced my rear output today, and within 10 minutes it was leaking again!!!!

cant we just use a little bigger oil seal spring for a tighter fit?


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## phreebsd

we get leaking around the shaft and seal. a moving part area.


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## wood butcher

my rear seal is leakin alot now to . i have the manual for the 650 but it doesn't include the 650i . how do u remove the rear drive shaft?


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## Polaris425

it's spring loaded, pull back the rubber caps & pull back on it, it should colapse off the motor & you will be able to slide it out of the way.


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## 88rxn/a

phreebsd said:


> we get leaking around the shaft and seal. a moving part area.



the seal on the left....
that round spring that "seals" around the shaft is what im talking about. maybe we could try a little smaller spring (tighter fit) or stronger that could make a better seal?


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## wood butcher

got shaft out if i unbolt that plate which has the seal in it will my oil run all over the place?


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## Polaris425

you dont have to unbolt the plate, just stick a screw driver or pick thru the old seal and pull it out. lube up the new one & tap it in, but, yeah, some of your oil is going to run out.


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## phreebsd

88rxn/a said:


> the seal on the left....
> that round spring that "seals" around the shaft is what im talking about. maybe we could try a little smaller spring (tighter fit) or stronger that could make a better seal?


I got what you were saying. I didnt think the spring was visible - on the outside of the plastic. I thought it was internal. I'll have to look at mine again.


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## phreebsd

ah you can see it. that might be something to try. I do wonder though will the extra pressure from the spring cause it to wear faster ?


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## bat quad

I pay a little more types of important not to change often


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## muddmonkey

heck yeah ill pay more ive replaced mine one time already my rear one and its leaking again with only 44 hours ive only had that seal in there for around 12 hours the stock seals suck :-(


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## phreebsd

i got 3 rides on my front one after the change still no leaks. doing good so far.


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## muddmonkey

i went to busco this past weekend and i noticed on the way back home on the trailer mine was leaking yet again after 3 rides around 12 hours i honestly have to say some1 needs to come out with a lot better seal


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## phreebsd

that mud does a job on that seal for sure.
What i dont get is I've seen many suzuki's with nary a leak.
:thumbsdown:


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## 08GreenBrute

my new brute had 25 hours on it and its starting to leak already  there needs to be a better seal by now


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## edtman

AUbruterider said:


> With almost 1400 miles on mine now - I've yet to replace the seal. Now I have had it leak a time or two but I've found that if you clean the area real good - this will stop the leaking. I personally think grit is gettin lodge between the seal and prop shaft or between the seal and casing - causing it to leak. I've said this several times but I've never had someone but no one seems to try the same thing - they just replace it...
> I've done this with 4 brutes and havent replaced a rear seal yet and they have stopped leaking - so now I just automatically clean it real good after every ride.
> I could be wrong here but this is my experience.
> But I'd like to hear from some others as well. If you've got a leaking seal right now - go out and try this. Spray it down real good with some degreaser then take a toothbrush or something similiar and clean it real good then hit it with some high pressure water and let us know...
> 
> By the way - I vote for a better seal for everyone that continues to buy them!


 

was looking for aftermarket seals, Im guessing from the feedback here, there are none. thought I remember someone mention NAPA seals. anyway, figured Id try this. 100 miles so far


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## IBBruin

phreebsd said:


> What i dont get is I've seen many suzuki's with nary a leak.


I'm not fluent in Alabama but I think what he's saying is he's seen several Suzuki's and he does not understand why they don't leak. 

:bigok:


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## cheapthrills

My sons eiger started to leak but he's got a couple of hundred hours on it. The down side is you need to take apart the u-joint to get to the seal.


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## Metal Man

My old AC 400 has a Suzuki engine in it. 3000 miles and the engine seals still do not leak.But it's never pulled a 10mph rolling wheelie like the brute either :bigok:


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## jctgumby

:haha: :rockn: :haha:


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## phreebsd

yes, that's what I'm saying IBBruin. They just don't seem to leak as a general rule.
I don't get it. The way the seals are designed can not be that different.
We had a 85 LT185 and 85 LT230. Neither one leaked and that was after 24 years!

If anyone is in Texas and it's a local call for you, can you check with a guy named Chad @ Woodlands Custon ATV? This gentlemen was rumored to have found a better seal than OEM and knows where to get them.

contact info: Houston, TX - (281) 807-7111


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## JTaylor11

phreebsd said:


> yes, that's what I'm saying IBBruin. They just don't seem to leak as a general rule.
> I don't get it. The way the seals are designed can not be that different.
> We had a 85 LT185 and 85 LT230. Neither one leaked and that was after 24 years!
> 
> If anyone is in Texas and it's a local call for you, can you check with a guy named Chad @ Woodlands Custon ATV? This gentlemen was rumored to have found a better seal than OEM and knows where to get them.
> 
> contact info: Houston, TX - (281) 807-7111


I'll have to give him a call. Ill be going through Houston in a week or so. Wanting to get some new seals put in mine before I put a motor in.


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## phreebsd

thank you, JTaylor11. im interested to see what he has to say.


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## CAGLE1

There's a complete engine oil seal kit on ebay for $26.99. Don't know if they are any better.


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## JTaylor11

Gave Chad a call today. He said the seals are made by Moose and his supplier he gets 'em from is K&C seals. I couldnt get the part number out of him but I`ll get it when I go get them. But the seals are a double lip seal and the kit comes with the front, rear and 4 O rings. The price is $36, not bad.


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## Yesterday

wth do i need 4 o rings for


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## JTaylor11

2 was for up top somewhere and the others transmission. Guess if they havent been leaking you dont.


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## phreebsd

JTaylor11 said:


> Gave Chad a call today. He said the seals are made by Moose and his supplier he gets 'em from is K&C seals. I couldnt get the part number out of him but I`ll get it when I go get them. But the seals are a double lip seal and the kit comes with the front, rear and 4 O rings. The price is $36, not bad.


please take macro shots of that seal. 
i want to see what double lip he's speaking of.
the seals we currently buy are double lipped on the inside.


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## JTaylor11

He was saying the he crossed referenced to number to make sure they want the same. Mabey he was taking bout the outer part of the seal being doubled. Cause he did say that the reason was to keep crap out.


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## phreebsd

interesting to say the least. I'm very interested in seeing these seals


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## JTaylor11

I should be going through Houston in a week or so. I'll get some pics posted then. Hope I get this BF running by Mud Fest. Like to have an extra 4wheeler down there.


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## gozabn

So when the seal is installed it should be flush with the lip of the case? I think who ever put mine in before I got the bike put it in too far because it was past the lip.


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## phreebsd

yep, must be flush.


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## RDs Neighbor

Any word? I got a leaker. Front Engine side.


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## walker

brad i've gotta leaker also


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## RDs Neighbor

Hate to hear it. Pour some Purple and Gold Bud Light on it. It'll be aight.


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## walker

duct tape and super glue


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## jctgumby

walker said:


> duct tape and super glue


 
Might work about as good as the factory seal :nutkick:


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## RDs Neighbor

How much are yall paying for seals? I got quoted $8.25 ea. If you are getting them cheaper off the web, please give me the site.


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## Yesterday

that's about right. pretty good price actually. my dealership is around 10 for a rear


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## Polaris425

$25 for 1 front and 1 rear last week when i got the from local stealer....


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## RDs Neighbor

I need to shut up then. I obvioulsy miss read someone stating they paid roughly $3 ea.


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## Metal Man

About $10 a piece at my local dealer as well.


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## phreebsd

JTaylor11 said:


> I should be going through Houston in a week or so. I'll get some pics posted then. Hope I get this BF running by Mud Fest. Like to have an extra 4wheeler down there.


 
Dying to see these seals!


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## JTaylor11

Me too. I came thur during that weekend. So I called that week to get him to send 'em to me. Well I could get in touch with him for a week or so. Well to make a long story short he didnt get em ordered and was bout too and was going to call me when they came in. Guess Ill give him a call later today.


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## RDs Neighbor

I go to Houston all of the time. I will be more than happy to help expedite this effort. Would you like me to stop by and talk to him in person ? I am sure there is additional info on this shop buried in the thread, I just don't have time to dig it up right now.

What is the name of the shop and the guy's name?


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## Yesterday

yeah. do it up! we need someone to take ack-shun. my ****'s leakin again.


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## phreebsd

RDs Neighbor said:


> I go to Houston all of the time. I will be more than happy to help expedite this effort. Would you like me to stop by and talk to him in person ? I am sure there is additional info on this shop buried in the thread, I just don't have time to dig it up right now.
> 
> What is the name of the shop and the guy's name?


name is chad @ woodlands custom atv


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## JTaylor11

I have to be back in Houston toward the end of the week. If someone eles can get there before will be fine. I still planning on going by there. Figure if someone could get the Part # we should beable to find it somewhere.


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## RDs Neighbor

Sounds good. I will be there the week after next. Please keep me posted. I can follow up from where you left off, if need be.:bigok:


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## RDs Neighbor

JTaylor11 said:


> Gave Chad a call today. He said the seals are made by Moose and his supplier he gets 'em from is K&C seals. I couldn't get the part number out of him but I`ll get it when I go get them. But the seals are a double lip seal and the kit comes with the front, rear and 4 O rings. The price is $36, not bad.


Here is the link to the product Moose offers. They are not very descriptive, and don't specifically mention "double lip" I gonna try to get someone on the phone.

http://www.mooseutilities.com/products.jsp?level1=977&product_group_id=1124

This is the part list.

http://www.mooseutilities.com/pdfs/fitments/gasketkitsall.pdf


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## JTaylor11

Probaly going to have to find a dealer. Here`s from there site.

Q4:
Where is your order line phone number?

A4:
We appreciate your interest in Moose and your desire to order our product. All Moose product is sold exclusively through authorized dealers for Parts Unlimited so there is no contact phone number for us. Please use the Dealer Search to find a dealer near you.

I sent them a email asking about the seals and if they are double liped.


----------



## JTaylor11

There is a couple dealers up here in Ft Worth where Im working. Ill get with one of em tomorrow and see if I can get my hands on one.


----------



## RDs Neighbor

JTaylor11 said:


> There is a couple dealers up here in Ft Worth where Im working. Ill get with one of em tomorrow and see if I can get my hands on one.


I emailed moose as well. I will make a couple calls tomorrow and try to talk to someone that can speak of them from a technical level.


----------



## RDs Neighbor

RDs Neighbor said:


> I emailed moose as well. I will make a couple calls tomorrow and try to talk to someone that can speak of them from a technical level.


Well no word back from Moose. After doing a little reading, everything they offer says "official OEM replacement". Does that mean replaces the OEM seal, or does it mean it is officially an OEM seal? I think it means an official OEM seal. That would explain the comment made by Chad at Woodlands custom in saying the seal manufacturer went out of business. This would explain the difficulty in finding a replacement option, because one doesn't exist. :thinking:

I am gonna continue to look.


----------



## JTaylor11

I just went thur my spam mail and found that the message to Moose couldn't be sent.


----------



## RDs Neighbor

JTaylor11 said:


> I just went thur my spam mail and found that the message to Moose couldn't be sent.


Are you still planning on stopping by Woodlands Custom ATV and speaking with Chad this week. I think that would be the best thing to do. Thanks for your effort. I hope we are not chasing our tail on this?


----------



## yiluss

i would definitely pay more for better seals, where can we buy them?


----------



## RDs Neighbor

yiluss said:


> i would definitely pay more for better seals, where can we buy them?


Working on that.


----------



## JTaylor11

That my plans. Tomorrow Im going to call around there dealers here in Ft Worth and see if anyone might have one in stock.


----------



## RDs Neighbor

Well boys, I think we are SOL on these seals. Everywhere you look, Kawie is the only manufacturer that makes the seal. I ain't gonna quit looking but I wouldn't get my hopes up on an improved aftermarket seal. Mooses' are made by Kawie. Who ever made the seals Woodlands Custom ATV was talking about definitely doesn't exist anymore.


----------



## phreebsd

Suck. Suck. Suck.


----------



## JTaylor11

When I get to Houston going to run down Chad and talk with him.


----------



## JTaylor11

Well Ive made a dozen calls and have tracked down who makes actually makes the Parts Unlimited-Moose seal. It a company called Winderosa Gaskets. Im going to give them a call tomorrow and see if I cant get an answer.
http://www.winderosa.com/index.html


----------



## RDs Neighbor

JTaylor11 said:


> Well Ive made a dozen calls and have tracked down who makes actually makes the Parts Unlimited-Moose seal. It a company called Winderosa Gaskets. Im going to give them a call tomorrow and see if I cant get an answer.
> http://www.winderosa.com/index.html


You are da man. Hold the road.


----------



## RDs Neighbor

If you do not have time to talk to them, I can call. I didn't want to step on your toes and steal the glory of you finding these people. Let me know how I can help.


----------



## JTaylor11

Oh your not going to step on my toes. Info is info. I'm running around right now. You can call if ya wanna.


----------



## RDs Neighbor

I am sure they are closed by now, east coast and all. I will definitely have time in the morning. I will give them a call first thing.


----------



## JTaylor11

Yeah I'm working nights and didn't wakeup till late.


----------



## Yesterday

what info from winderosa are you all looking for?


----------



## JTaylor11

About their seals. If theyvare doubled lipped.


----------



## RDs Neighbor

JTaylor11 said:


> About their seals. If theyvare doubled lipped.


Among other things. Basicly if the reversed engineered the seal and improved the design for moose. Or did they simply reproduce the seal and stuck it in a moose bag.


----------



## JTaylor11

Sounds like you have better questions. Guess I'll wait and see what info you can get from him.


----------



## Yesterday

moose isnt the only distributor of their products, so im sure its an original design on the seals.


----------



## phreebsd

im still unsure of double lip?

This is the OEM seal and it is double-lipped on the shaft sealing surface


----------



## RDs Neighbor

I havn't got any word back from Winderosa yet, however after spending most of the morning reading on this, I am going to purchase a seal kit and give it a try. WTF, we aint hitten on much with the OEM seal, what do I have to lose. I really wanted to ask them if they did a grass roots study on their design, or did they reverse engineer kawies seal. I have sent an email to the tech person whom is actually the CEO, which I think is kinda cool btw.

I guess I will post what ever comes first. Winderosa's design concept or, actual photos and dimensions. It is probably worth mentioning that Moose's oil seals and gaskets are Winderosa's products.


----------



## phreebsd

if we get to the bottom of this and have found a better seal, we're the only mofo's who have the info or cared enough to organize and get it


----------



## Metal Man

I'd be willing to bet its just a copy of the OEM seal. If Winderosa had actually put time into designing a new seal you would think they would advertise it as a better then stock replacement.

But one can hope thats not the case and it's better.Cause the stock seal we got now is garbage!!


----------



## RDs Neighbor

Jay Windover of Winderosa called today. He said that their seal is different. It is a double lip seal, however the lip design is different from the OEM. He got over my head pretty quick technically. He would not say that their seal is better than Kawies, its just different. He thinks that the winderosa seal will do the job we need. I have purchased a kit and will give it a try. Of course I will take plenty of photos and and measurements for you guys input. He aslo mentioned that the seals are availble for sale individually you will just have to ask your supplier to order it that way. I am however purchasing the kit.

I explained to Jay the rididng conditions and what we anticipate the flaws of the OEM seal to be. He is in agreement that it is more of a "keeping dirt out" vs. "keeping oil in" issue. Jay was gracious enough to offer making modifications to the seal if it would improve the overall product. He said he would stack as many lips that will physlcall fit. He was asking if we could pass some meausrements along and he would let us know what he could do to improve. He did not mention any addtional costs. for this service. He did ask that we give his standard replacement seal a try. If this seal doesn't perform as well as we are hoping, I would have to pass this along to someone in the forum more technically compitent about the enging shaft who could speak this guys langauage.

He is an extremly nice guy and is definitely about getting it right.

Either way, it looks like we have found a soloution.

I will post the info from the new kit, as soon as I recieve it. I should have it by mid week. 

This is good news.


----------



## phreebsd

now that's some good news there. someone willing to work with us to design a better product.

there's actually room for 2 seals in there but that doest work. that's why im thinking 4 lips (3 seperate chambers) is gonna work well cause there;'s room for that for sure.


----------



## RDs Neighbor

Someone other than me may need to talk to him. He was asking for measurements in regard to the main clutch???? I guess I am showing my ingorance here.


----------



## JTaylor11

Thanks for the update RD.


----------



## Metal Man

Good work man!!


----------



## RDs Neighbor

Okay, I got the kit. I will take some pictures and get them up in a bit. At first glance they look different. That is going off of memory though.


----------



## Yesterday

RDs Neighbor said:


> Okay, I got the kit. I will take some pictures and get them up in a bit. At first glance they look different. That is going off of memory though.


hurry up! get measurements too if possible!


----------



## RDs Neighbor

I am loading the images now. Here are the measurements. I will edit the post with the photos shortly.



There are no instructions or definitions of the part numbers so I have numbered them 1 through 6. I am unsure to which one is the front engine seal. The larger one is obviously the rear. The measurements were taken from the seal in the relaxed state. I did not compress them and measured them as accurately as I could. 

















I collected 3 measurements The OD, ID and outermost width. I did not have means to measure the width of the inner seal lip. 


Seal 1
50-1740 1550









































OD=58.9 mm/2.290"
ID=22.85mm/1.185"
Outer width 8.46mm/.346"

Seal 2
SDA 067 TC 30 45 8 3









































OD=45.77mm/1.777"
ID=30.54mm/1.158"
Outer width 7.13mm/.313

Seal 3
TNT 50-1739 1549 4


































OD=42.61mm/1.661"
ID=26.55mm/1.555"
Outer width 8.16mm\.316"

Seal 4
TNT 50-1738 1548 4









































OD=45.77mm/1.777"
ID=27.96mm/1.196"
Outed width 6.71mm/.271"

Seal 5
SDA 893 TB2 35 50 3


































OD=50.79mm/1.979"
ID=34.78mm/1.378"
Outer width 8.13mm/.313"

Seal 6
TNT SD-1581 TC 12 22 5 1402 1
























OD=22.72mm/.872"
ID=11.52mm/.452"
Outer width 5.95mm/.295"


----------



## phreebsd

i think that seal may have a shot!
it does appear to be thicker lipped on the inside.


----------



## RDs Neighbor

I will try to get a measurement of the inside width tomorrow.


----------



## Metal Man

Heres a pic of the stock seal Steve posted next to the new seal. Looks like the stock seal has an extra lip inside.


----------



## RDs Neighbor

Disappointedly, agreed. We were discussing that last night. It is as if the OEM seal has 3 lips(2 chambers), and the Winderosa has two lips (1 chamber). The inner width/outer lips appear to be a tad thicker, however it is difficult to measure. I guess I will just have to try it.

BTW, if you need delete some of these pictures are move them somewhere else, please feel free. I know it takes a while for all of these images to open, and may be come a nuisance for this page in the thread.


----------



## phreebsd

i still think it may have a shot with that thicker rubber lip.
we shall see!


----------



## JTaylor11

Good to see you went thur with it. Cause I want beable to go thur Houston before I go home. But when I do get back to Mobile This weekend. I'll be getting a set ordered too.


----------



## Metal Man

I'm to lazy to start looking through the older post but if i remember correctly didn't the guy that makes these seals say he would work with someone to add extra lips if the seal needed it?


----------



## NMKawierider

I have a spare set and I'll mic the shaft and the seal, but just looking the inner lip appears too short to make any real contact with the shaft. It might just be a secondary guard. Just thinking out loud. Has anyone tried National or Timkin for a real double wipe seal? I have been meaning to take my spare down to the local store but have not had the time.


----------



## phreebsd

Metal Man said:


> I'm to lazy to start looking through the older post but if i remember correctly didn't the guy that makes these seals say he would work with someone to add extra lips if the seal needed it?


that was winderosa


----------



## RDs Neighbor

phreebsd said:


> that was winderosa


You are correct. The CEO of wnderosa Jay Windover said he would add as many lips as we felt it needed, or that would fit. He needed some measurements to confirm. I am not familiar with what he was asking. He kept refereeing to a measurement from the main clutch. Is that just behind the sealing surface of the output shaft inside the case??? Like I said. Someone that understands the internals may have to be the one to contact him. I am going to install the seal as is. Problem is, I don't get to ride that much so I don't know when I will be able to give some feed back.

Feel free to contact him via email or phone. He said it may take a day or two for him to get back with the caller. He actually called me back on a Saturday. Everything can be found at www.winderosa.com. 

I will send an update documenting a comparison between the two when I change them out.


----------



## Brute650i

I have an extra through shaft the has the plate in the rear where the seal sits. It may would be good if he could get ahold of one and then he could see what would work/fit at least for the rear seal the front seal would requre the entire case


----------



## RDs Neighbor

Yes, I should probably clarify that I was speaking of the front seal because that is where mine is currently leaking. I am going to install these and see how it goes. If they leak, well I will get him on the phone if no one has spoken to him in the interim. 

By they way, with no definitions of the part numbers in the kit, what is the best way to determine which seal goes where. The front engine, and what I assume to be both the front and rear diff seals, are very close in size.

Does the Kawie manual have a breakdown of the various seal dimensions that would aid in comparing the OEM with winderosa's?


----------



## Metal Man

phreebsd said:


> that was winderosa


Yeah thats who i was talking about. Thats the company that made the seals in the pics above.

I know we need something to keep the oil in but i think we all would agree the real problem is coming for the seal letting dirt in!! Once the dirt gets in the seal thats what is cause in to leak....This is right...right?

Maybe both side of the seal need a double lip facing each way. Or maybe the outer lip that keeping the dirt out needs to be much thicker and less flimsy...or maybe theres a reason i don't make seals for a living.Cause i don't know what the hell i'm talking about LOL


What i do know is that high quality seals are made ever day for other brands and products. Why cant we have one for the Kawie Vtwin. is it really that hard of a problem for a seal engineer to over come????:thinking:


----------



## Yesterday

i'd liek to see detailed photos of the same seals on other brands, suzuki, polaris, can-am, arctic cat. i wanna see where kawie went/isgoing wrong


----------



## RDs Neighbor

Metal Man said:


> Yeah thats who i was talking about. Thats the company that made the seals in the pics above.
> 
> I know we need something to keep the oil in but i think we all would agree the real problem is coming for the seal letting dirt in!! Once the dirt gets in the seal thats what is cause in to leak....This is right...right?
> 
> Maybe both side of the seal need a double lip facing each way. Or maybe the outer lip that keeping the dirt out needs to be much thicker and less flimsh...or may theres a reason i don't make seals for a living.Cause i don't know what the hell i'm talking about LOL
> 
> 
> What i do know is that high quality seals are made ever day for other brands and products. Why cant we have one for the Kawie Vtwin. is it really that hard of a problem for a seal engineer to over come????:thinking:


This was the initial conversation with Winderosa,


"Jay Windover of Winderosa called today. He said that their seal is different. It is a double lip seal, however the lip design is different from the OEM. He got over my head pretty quick technically. He would not say that their seal is better than Kawies, its just different. He thinks that the winderosa seal will do the job we need. I have purchased a kit and will give it a try. Of course I will take plenty of photos and and measurements for you guys input. He also mentioned that the seals are available for sale individually you will just have to ask your supplier to order it that way. I am however purchasing the kit.

I explained to Jay the riding conditions and what we anticipate the flaws of the OEM seal to be. He is in agreement that it is more of a "keeping dirt out" vs. "keeping oil in" issue. Jay was gracious enough to offer making modifications to the seal if it would improve the overall product. He said he would stack as many lips that will physically fit. He was asking if we could pass some measurements along and he would let us know what he could do to improve. He did not mention any additional costs. for this service. He did ask that we give his standard replacement seal a try. If this seal doesn't perform as well as we are hoping, I would have to pass this along to someone in the forum more technically competent about the engine shaft who could speak this guys language.

He is an extremely nice guy and is definitely about getting it right.

Either way, it looks like we have found a solution.

I will post the info from the new kit, as soon as I receive it. I should have it by mid week. 

This is good news."



He will improve the seal. We just need to get him the information he needs. That is if Winderosa's current seal design doesn't hold up.

Brute 650i has a good idea in sending them up the shaft and plate for the rear. However, I really don't think they need that. Also what would we send up to represent the front. He was very specific in requesting dimensions. I know I sound like a broken record, I just don't know what he is talking about.

To add to the last part of your comment of "why is it so difficult?" I personally think it isn't difficult, it's just either no-one has brought it up to someone who would and could help. This thread was started with the intent of designing a new seal, it was stopped due to $$$$$$$. It was only until we found Winderosa that someone committed to improving the seal.

I'm telling you, this guy sounded generally concerned. He understands that Kawie's seal is sub par. He just wouldn't say that.


----------



## RDs Neighbor

phIshy said:


> I'd like to see detailed photos of the same seals on other brands, suzuki, polaris, can-am, arctic cat. i wanna see where kawie went/is going wrong


I found it odd as well that this one kit fits the other bikes listed on the package.

The only thing I can think of, which has been discussed is the higher cc bikes create higher temps, and more oil pressure than the other listed on the pack. I may be the material the seal is made from. It may fractionally swell and shrink at temps that are not reached on the smaller cc machines. Someone mentioned there seal problems went away after installing an oil cooler. And that was with OEM seals. 

What I really hope to find with these Windorsa seals is that they are made out of a better material that reacts to the higher temps better.

Can anyone comment on what temp and pressure ranges the 650, or 700 operate at. Or any other make of bike for that matter?


----------



## phreebsd

the other bikes listed on the packages are the same things as kawie. 
the suzuki twin peaks is the same as the prarie 700 and the AC V2 has the kawasaki 650 engine in it.


----------



## RDs Neighbor

phreebsd said:


> the other bikes listed on the packages are the same things as kawie.
> the suzuki twin peaks is the same as the prarie 700 and the AC V2 has the kawasaki 650 engine in it.


Okay..I can scratch that off of the WTF list. I had no idea.:thinking:


----------



## phreebsd

I looked up "average oil temp" once and came up with its generally being 210 for an automobile but aywhere from 40 to 90 degrees higher for a compact engine.
Keep in mind also, our engines have a shared sump to bathe both engine internals and the tranny gears. that's exceptionally hard on oil.


----------



## RDs Neighbor

I wish we could up up with a grease filled dirt boot. I have been looking in to it. There just is no way to attach it to the block, and givng the shaft something to rotate on is proving to be difficult. A bearing wouldn't help. That would be something else to seal. I dunno.


----------



## wood butcher

i am waitin on my set to come in, and was talkin with our mech at work and got to thinkin during every oil change colaspe the shaft and pull them out and clean inside seal and put some lithum grease on the lips and reinstall shafts then oil her up. what yall think about that?


----------



## phreebsd

i dont think u can get the seal out without taking the plate off and popping it out from the inside. might be a good idea.


----------



## wood butcher

no just stick ur finger in the hole and make just make small circles inside and then pull it out then relube finger and insert to grease it up


----------



## NMKawierider

What hole? It seals against the output shaft not the yoke. However, my father always said when installing a new seal you should fill the area between the seal wipes which is all lips facing inward and the outer guards with lithum or sylicone grease as this will give you two things, one, it will be the only lube any second seal and the guard will get for a long time and two, it helps keep stuff that gets by the guard from getting to the actual seal surfaces making then last longer. Just putting that out there. Always did what he said and always got great seal life.


----------



## RDs Neighbor

wood butcher said:


> no just stick ur finger in the hole and make just make small circles inside and then pull it out then relube finger and insert to grease it up


Had to re-read that one. 

Might make for an interesting "how to". "Woodbutcher and Brutes".


----------



## phreebsd

nmkawierider said:


> What hole? It seals against the output shaft not the yoke. However, my father always said when installing a new seal you should fill the area between the seal wipes which is all lips facing inward and the outer guards with lithum or sylicone grease as this will give you two things, one, it will be the only lube any second seal and the guard will get for a long time and two, it helps keep stuff that gets by the guard from getting to the actual seal surfaces making then last longer. Just putting that out there. Always did what he said and always got great seal life.


that sounds like a real good idea. I'll try that on my next change.


----------



## RDs Neighbor

wood butcher said:


> i am waitin on my set to come in, and was talkin with our mech at work and got to thinkin during every oil change colaspe the shaft and pull them out and clean inside seal and put some lithum grease on the lips and reinstall shafts then oil her up. what yall think about that?


 Did change the seals out yet? I hadn't had a chance to do mine.


----------



## wood butcher

no, im still waitin on mine to come in . i had to order from the local honda shop so there in no big hurry to get any kawi parts . so im just a waitin.


----------



## phreebsd

RD's neighbor: you got that seal that installed yet?


----------



## Metal Man

Who unstickyed the thread?


----------



## phreebsd

i show it as stuck


----------



## Metal Man

It is now but some one had removed it.


----------



## phreebsd

must have been the thread fairy.


----------



## Metal Man

Will the real thread fairy please stand up!!


----------



## wood butcher

it wasn't me this time


----------



## RDs Neighbor

phreebsd said:


> RD's neighbor: you got that seal that installed yet?


 
Not yet, maybe tomorrow. Hit a road block with time. I installed a rear inboard boot today, the thing was completely full of mud. Took forever. Took if for a quick spin, and it is still clicking. Probably got to tear it back down. urrggh.


----------



## beavel

SO I picked up a front and rear seal for my brute will change them out sometime after tomorrows ride. Mine lasted a year and 1300kms on the bike before needing to be changed so $30 bucks for both seals not too bad but it is a horrible design for sure.


----------



## rhelms

Curious about those Winderosa seals. I got a leaker after only 160 miles. WTF!!!


----------



## Yesterday

yer lucky you made it that far without replacin one


----------



## rhelms

I know but it still should last a hell of a lot longer


----------



## RDs Neighbor

Well I got around to installing the winderosa seal today. I can say the circular springs in the interior are definitely larger. I am hoping more tension on the shaft. The lip that contacts the shaft is definitely larger, I think it is going to repel debris better. We'll see. 

Now if I could only get a boot to stay on. Having bad luck with them for some reason.


----------



## Bootlegger

RDs Neighbor said:


> Well I got around to installing the winderosa seal today. I can say the circular springs in the interior are definitely larger. I am hoping more tension on the shaft. The lip that contacts the shaft is definitely larger, I think it is going to repel debris better. We'll see.
> 
> Now if I could only get a boot to stay on. Having bad luck with them for some reason.



was that the rear seal on the motor output shaft?? I got to put a new one in sometime in the next two weeks:aargh4: I was told by some that if your shaft is wore an at all around the seal it will leak no matter what....Not sure...just what I was told.


----------



## RDs Neighbor

Bootlegger said:


> was that the rear seal on the motor output shaft?? I got to put a new one in sometime in the next two weeks:aargh4: I was told by some that if your shaft is wore an at all around the seal it will leak no matter what....Not sure...just what I was told.


Nope, sorry it was the front engine side. But I did hear the same thing in regards to the groove on the rear shaft. I will definitely let you know what I find when I change the rear. It isn't leaking at present, but I think we know it's coming.

good luck.


----------



## Brute650i

The first seal lasted me 800 miles the next 2 only about 100 each so I definitely think the shaft has something to do with it. It would almost be worth it to buy a new shaft. May cost more but at least you could go a while with out changing them. I figure 100 now to last 800 miles or 10 bucks a pop for every 75 miles or so and having to take the time to change it


----------



## wood butcher

well i finally got my seals today . no where on them do they say windarosa , some have TNT on them and others have SDA. anyone else notic that?


----------



## RDs Neighbor

Yes, now that you mention it, the seals do not have Winderosa printed on them.


----------



## wood butcher

well mine have 2 different manufacturers names printed on them. so i dont know if what i got from moose is the good or junk


----------



## RDs Neighbor

Go back a couple of pages and compare them to the pics I posted of the seals that were in the "Winderosa" kit. It sounds like the same thing. 

I don't know what to think. I installed the replacement  on the seal I had leaking, but hadn't ridden the bike yet.


----------



## wood butcher

ok the seal i have are the same as the ones u got. my package just had moose racing on it


----------



## RDs Neighbor

wood butcher said:


> ok the seal i have are the same as the ones u got. my package just had moose racing on it


I am wondering the same thing you were though, does Winderosa really make them??? This is exhausting.


----------



## wood butcher

i think if they did the seals would have there trademark on them , not two different names


----------



## Blaze

I just got a front leaker myself , 790 miles on my brute , its coming from the front engine side and its real bad , its so bad I lost most the oil.. hmmm. now to take it apart and check everything this will be fun right before winter to.


----------



## phreebsd

wont take you too long. you'll be done in no time.


----------



## NMKawierider

Piece-a-cake.


----------



## wood butcher

OK i just around to changing the front and rear seals today. i bought the seal kit from moose that was supposed to be the winderosa seals . when i got the front one out it was the identical seal just another name on it . the rear was the same way . the rear drive shaft was frozen solid , some penetrating oil and a big hammer , i don't think it has ever been out before. i think winderosa is a bunch of crap , the new seals were TNT brand made in taiwan


----------



## walker

i fill yea wood butcher changed my rear seal out the other day i used a rachet strap to get to compress then had to use 2 rachet straps to it apart not a narn lick of grease ... i used a good ol oem seal... want be having that problem again with the driveshaft its greased up....


----------



## Blaze

anyone on here know the part number , to the front seal ? ( engine side )


----------



## phreebsd

92049-1570


----------



## Bootlegger

wood butcher said:


> ok the seal i have are the same as the ones u got. my package just had moose racing on it


lol...I put one in Thursday. Moose parts are just other name brands package by Moose. I use Moose Bearings....they are made by All Balls. Even says it on the package....but are cheaper than all balls :thinking: lol.

My new seal from Kawie said TnT on it for the rear.


----------



## phreebsd

huh.. there's something.. TNT on the factory seal?


----------



## greenbudds

hey i have an 07 750i mine started leaking first month after i had it i just now got kaw to replace the shaft and bearing and bounch of stuff, the shaft was bad


----------



## Blaze

phreebsd said:


> 92049-1570


ty very much sir , I went to the local kawai dealer as the dealer I work at part time no longer carries kawai parts. I will start on it tomorrow and maybe document on a how to so I may be able to help others when it happens to them since it is so common.
cost $10.85

heres a pic. ......


----------



## Polaris425

Phreebsd has videos already in the how to section, changing his...

http://www.mudinmyblood.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1890


not to discourage you from doing your own but...  We do have that one if you need to check it out.


----------



## yiluss

Just wondering how the winderosa seals worked out? I have two brutes, and both are leaking after putting brand new OEM kawi seals in the rear part of the engine, should I change to winderosa or are they the same of the OEM?

Also could it be a problem with the shaft and not the seal?


----------



## RDs Neighbor

Well, I changed out the engine rear output shaft, and have 1 ride on it and no leaks. However, I have not thoroughly cleaned the bike yet, and that seems to be when the leaks start. Also, the mud we were in was pretty thick, and wasn't very sandy, which IMO is a good thing for the seal life, however I don't think what we were riding in is going to allow us to give a fair assessment of the performance of the seal. Soupy sandy conditions will be the ultimate test in my opinion.​ 
I would definitely inspect the shaft for wear around the area it contacts the seal. Sand and Grit build up in there and could etch the shaft creating a void.​ 
I will let you know if it starts leaking.​ 
So far so good at this point.​ 
I should add, the Brute took everything I could throw at it. I think it could climb a brick wall if you let it. 

These bikes need a lot of TLC, but man it's worth it.:rockn:​


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## RDs Neighbor

Rode for 5 hours Sat and about 4 hours Sun at Tower Trax, went in the pit, mud trails, and in the creek bottom (lots of sand, floor boards had about 2 inches piled on um) So far So good. No leaks. I cleaned it at the park, and at home with the pressure washer. I got one more wipe down to go. The ultimate test ought to be after the next ride to see if I got a bunch of sand in the seal.

KNOCKING ON WOOD. P..P..P..P..PLEASE DON'T LEAK.


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## MeanGreen198

Was talkin to my mechanic this past weekend when i dropped off my bike for him to install the Dynatek and program it. I believe he said something about he is working with someone on getting one with a little bit smaller hole so the sand and grit doesn't get in there or something... I'll keep y'all posted and relay info when I find out more.


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## RDs Neighbor

Mean Green 198,

I think the consensus is more seal lips are needed. I spoke personally with Jay Windover at Winderosa seals. He said he would add as many seal lip as he could fit. If you and your mechanic buddy are really interested in improving the seal, I suggest you read this entire post. I believe Jay Windover's contact info is posted somewhere in here. I couldn't answer the questions he was asking. You may be able to.

As my post says above, so far so good on the Winderosa seals right out of the box. Even though they appear to be manufactured by TNT whoever they are.


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## Heath070707

Has anyone looked at the seals for the Artic Cat or the Twin Peaks as far as OEM? Are they any different? I was thinking of having my shafts chrome plated then reground. Chrome plating on shafts is rell tough, maybe that would help the pitting and wear.


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## phreebsd

the seals for the ac 650 vtwin and the twin peaks are from the same manufacturer.


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## Heath070707

ok, i wasnt sure. I want to find something that will work just like you guys.


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## quik660

this is just a shot in the dark, as i have not attempted it yet. i work on elevstors for a living and have to deal with bearings and seals daily. on particular hoist machine that my company produes is know for eating seals. it is the same type set up as our bikes.....long story short. this thing of course isnt exposed to mud and sand and what not but.........one thing we do to prolong the life of these seals is to wrap the area around the seal with some felt(think thats how you spell it) its seems to help. if it is possible to use some of that material to wrap the area and maybe zip tie it in place or use a boot band to secure it.....it should DEF help to prevent the contact area from being exposed to the debris. im going to try this as soon as my brute gets out of the shop. i will post my results!!! wish me luck


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## FABMAN

Has anyone tried to make the shaft larger instead of trying to find a different seal? I bet I could weld on the shaft where the seal contacts it to build it up and then put it in the lath to turn it back down slightly larger then stock.


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## bruteman1

can i have the part number for the real seal, the oem one


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## phreebsd

92049-0095


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## Heath070707

i was actually thinking of doing that fabman but i didnt know how much to add to it to be effective or if that would be going backwards as far as fixing it???????? I guess i could try it. I dont know how fast i could post on how it worked because i am going overseas soon. Does anyone know the diameter on the articat shaft since they use the same seal? I havent heard of any problems with them.


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## Heath070707

ok i just turned the piece down that came out of the front diff where the driveshaft went in, machined a piece to press back on and turned it down. I made the shaft .005 bigger and it seemed to fit the seal great. Will post results on reliability as soon as I can.


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## FABMAN

Cool let us know. I was thinking of just welding on it then id it turned down about the same .005 to .003 or something.


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## Butch

So what is the latest? Any positive results in you test?


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## Heath070707

not yet man, and prob wont be for a while, sorry to let yall down but im on a trip for work, i will be home again next weekend for a few weeks then gone again for six months.


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## bustamove

WOW long read. 12 pages. im here aswell in search for better seals. i think we should also look at why other manufactures bikes don't leak. like i have a can am in the garage as well. and not a probs with seal leaks at all... although thing you must realize is with can am there gear box and engine are two separate items. i did hear of guys removing just 4 coils from the back of the seal to improve tension on the spring. also has anyone tried putting 2 seals in there? or a wild idea my buddy threw at me... create some sort of a sock that encloses the whole drive shaft something similar to the SRA brutes.


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## ranceola

I have never changed my seal but thin again the brute is new but i will be willing to buy this seal when i replace it


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## Butch

bustamove said:


> WOW long read. 12 pages. im here aswell in search for better seals. i think we should also look at why other manufactures bikes don't leak. like i have a can am in the garage as well. and not a probs with seal leaks at all... although thing you must realize is with can am there gear box and engine are two separate items. i did hear of guys removing just 4 coils from the back of the seal to improve tension on the spring. also has anyone tried putting 2 seals in there? or a wild idea my buddy threw at me... create some sort of a sock that encloses the whole drive shaft something similar to the SRA brutes.


Thats not a bad idea? I might just have to think on that a while and see if I can rig something up? Worth trying.


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## phreebsd

i thought about it and figured that as soon as you submerged it a few times in the muck it would just become a holder of grit and bad stuff.


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## droppedbass87

Ok guys heres the deal..i have been rebuilding transmissions with my dad now for 7 years..and grown up around them and seen so many seals i cant even imagine and my dads been doin it for 30+ years so i talked to him and hes guna help me with this crap cuz im tired of seein people forkout 10 bucks here and 20 bucks there and the time it takes away which isnt to much but still it shouldnt be our problem..i guarantee i will have a fix to this problem within a week or 2 tops..im goin to my best friends shop consolidated transmission parts im goin to find a better seal to put on these things cuz i transmission seals are crazy toughand hardly ever leak..i also hate how its the easy pop in and out rubber seal..i like flush mounted seals that u have to put either silicone or my fav thread locker around it then put it in the housing..that way it never moves..im goin to go and buy a seal wednesday or tuesday from my atv shop here and then run to my buddies and find a **** seal to fix this problem and if i really cant find one then i have one other idea that may work but first lemme try it..and reason im doing all this also is cuz im buying a brute monday and im not changin a dang seal every 100 hours or less..


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## phreebsd

good luck, man. interested in any progress you make.


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## yugoboss

When i purchased my seal, they said it was an updated seal, no leaks so far.


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## Metal Man

droppedbass87 keep us in the loop on what you find. Theres got to be a better seal somewhere.

Oh yeah BTW....good luck getting 100 hours out of the stock seal LMAO!!! Mine was leaking after 100 miles


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## Metal Man

yugoboss said:


> When i purchased my seal, they said it was an updated seal, no leaks so far.


Who told you that,the dealer? You got a part number on it?


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## derk

Just saw that mine is leaking. i Have maybe 60 hours on mine if that...

Any consensus on aftermarket seals? Also where is a good place online to buy the oem for now?


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## bustamove

phreebsd said:


> i thought about it and figured that as soon as you submerged it a few times in the muck it would just become a holder of grit and bad stuff.


yeah same... but if you made it good enough seal.. but there is nothing on the diff side no flange nothing


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## bustamove

droppedbass87 said:


> Ok guys heres the deal..i have been rebuilding transmissions with my dad now for 7 years..and grown up around them and seen so many seals i cant even imagine and my dads been doin it for 30+ years so i talked to him and hes guna help me with this crap cuz im tired of seein people forkout 10 bucks here and 20 bucks there and the time it takes away which isnt to much but still it shouldnt be our problem..i guarantee i will have a fix to this problem within a week or 2 tops..im goin to my best friends shop consolidated transmission parts im goin to find a better seal to put on these things cuz i transmission seals are crazy toughand hardly ever leak..i also hate how its the easy pop in and out rubber seal..i like flush mounted seals that u have to put either silicone or my fav thread locker around it then put it in the housing..that way it never moves..im goin to go and buy a seal wednesday or tuesday from my atv shop here and then run to my buddies and find a **** seal to fix this problem and if i really cant find one then i have one other idea that may work but first lemme try it..and reason im doing all this also is cuz im buying a brute monday and im not changin a dang seal every 100 hours or less..



GOT SPEED MAN GOT SPEED..... someone somewhere has got to come up with a way to figure this out... we should in all honesty figure out why they are failing though...


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## Heath070707

I still think this will be hard to crack in a week or two. Not many even start leaking that soon. Mine has 1200-1300 miles on it and the seal i just replaced on the front diff is the first. The only other one i have replaced is the one on the back of the engine, and it needs one on the front now. Still havent rode mine since the front mod so its looking like it will prob be october now.


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## phreebsd

im still waiting to hear results of applying grease to the sealing lips on the seal during new seal installation.


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## bustamove

phreebsd said:


> im still waiting to hear results of applying grease to the sealing lips on the seal during new seal installation.


i do that every time.... still leaks every 200 miles..

i am going to try the tighter spring mod. i think this weekend.


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## phreebsd

suck


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## Heath070707

The Kawi seals that i have bought have had grease on the inner lip when I bought them.


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## bustamove

lol well im getting shafted here... my seals are bone dry.. 

what ever happen to this guy that claimed kawie got a new seal out?


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## Bootlegger

If the seal is truly updated....it will have a different part #. After I put the Maxima waterproof grease on the inside of mine...its lasted for a long time. When I traded it it was still fine.


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## harmonsbrute

wats the part number on this new seal boot?


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## bustamove

so i spent a bit here looking to see if kawie did change there seal.. if there is a new part i can't find it... but i did find that kawie makes 2 differen't seals for the rear on these bikes
92049-1529 this is the older one found on the 700, 650(upto 09) and 750 (upto 07)
92049-0095 this is the new one that i always ran 750 (08 up) and 650 (2010)

correct me if i am wrong but the these engines are basically all the same housing and thru shaft dia. from the 700-650-750 right?


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## phreebsd

0095 is the new part number. it replaced 1529.


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## bshattuck87

So is the 0095 the new part number for the seal on the rear of the motor where the rear drive shaft goes into the engine?

Brenton


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## phreebsd

94blacksnk said:


> So is the 0095 the new part number for the seal on the rear of the motor where the rear drive shaft goes into the engine?
> 
> Brenton


Yes, sir. That's the one.


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## bustamove

its newish... but it still leaks TOO LOL...


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## jrpro130

I got tired of leaking seals, I rode this weekend and went DEEP...needless to say the oil is milking a little because of it. So I changed my rear seal just tonight...took about 10-15 coils out of it. Not hard to do at all, just literally snip snip and twist it back together. It can get messed up really easy though. It feels a lot tighter.

I did NOT put grease on the lips, I did put oil. We will see what happens. Hopefully it's not "too" tight...I don't think there is such a thing with these seals!


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## Metal Man

Keep an eye on it and let us know.

Mine are leaking...again.:34:


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## bustamove

jrpro130 said:


> I got tired of leaking seals, I rode this weekend and went DEEP...needless to say the oil is milking a little because of it. So I changed my rear seal just tonight...took about 10-15 coils out of it. Not hard to do at all, just literally snip snip and twist it back together. It can get messed up really easy though. It feels a lot tighter.
> 
> I did NOT put grease on the lips, I did put oil. We will see what happens. Hopefully it's not "too" tight...I don't think there is such a thing with these seals!


im thinkin about doing the same thing... my dealer told me i probably have to replace the shaft cuz it has a groove in it... so like you i can't loose to try... im doing mine this weekend..


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## phreebsd

ill try mine as well. ordering a seal soon. mine is leaking bad


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## sjf323

I just changed my seal and it lasted one whole ride. The first seal tht I changed last a good while, was expecting the same from this one. Just hope I didn't gouge the shaft or something. B/c tht appears where it is leaking from,around the shaft. **** they need to fix this crap.

Wht kind of grease y'all using?

Scott


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## sjf323

Is it possible to change seal without changing oil, say like lifting the rear of the bike. My oil has one ride on it very few hours, was trying to find way to avoid wasting it. 

Was going to try using a degreaser and brush first on the lip area to see if it stops leaks. It's not dripping oil are anything, the seal is just wet from oil.

Scott


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## Yesterday

you'd have to lift the rear of the bike really high,


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## jrpro130

My seal Mod is holding up great. 3 hard rides and no signs of leaking yet!!! Take about 15-20 coils out and put it back together and put a little grease on the lip

I have heard of others putting grease on the inside of the seal but I don't feel it is necesary


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## bustamove

i too took some coils out... no idea how many but about 1/4 inch worth..
i was replacing the front seal on my truck today.. seal wore a groove in the shaft.. has anyone tried running a speedy sleeve on the brute shaft. it would be tighter and wouldn't have to worry about the shaft wearing.


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## jrpro130

Scratch that guys. 4th ride and mine is leaking

I think the grease might be better. I am gonna try just grease this time. Let me know if anyone has any more luck


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## phreebsd

i got some seals supposed to be here today. they havent called yet.
when i do mine ill try the grease in the inner lip.

front seal is still holding after many rides.


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## 08beast

Well i made it 133 hrs and 800 miles on the first one and its leaking now. sounds like the best seal availible is the kawi seal?

if you don't mind me asking where's the best place to get them?


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## lilbigtonka

i get mine from the dealer, you van find em cheaper online but after shipping you are losing money


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## jrpro130

phreebsd said:


> i got some seals supposed to be here today. they havent called yet.
> when i do mine ill try the grease in the inner lip.
> 
> front seal is still holding after many rides.


I heard that you are supposed to fill up the whole seal with grease...the cup part. The oil won't leak past the grease!!! :rockn:


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## brutemike

*bad seal*

allways put grease in ur seals they last alot longer. still got my original ones in mine 575 hours just a smal leak but changed the front diff ones enough.


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## Rack High

I'm with you Bump530. The shaft becomes grooved when dirt and grit grind away at it increasing the depth and making the seal less effective IMO. A new seal works for a while but then begins to leak as both it and the shaft wear. A better solution would be a strong but pliable sealing material with an O-groove in the back of it for a strong O-spring that would compensate for the shaft/seal wear. Hence a seal that would last considerably longer.


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## jrpro130

All the brutes in my group tend to last 3 rides on a seal no matter what. We have tried all sorts of things. I can't keep from getting water in my oil either.


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## jrpro130

I just did rear, front, and re sealed my rear seal cover (thing with 4 bolts that I took off and shouldn't have...thought I would get a better angle on the seal) I have had a leak from it ever since. Couldn't keep from milking the oil (not horrible, but showing up on the dipstick).

Now I am using mobil 1 20-50 vtwin oil...hope for the best. I should have no leaks, which is all I am praying for. The front seal was completely gone.

I pushed the rear in a little too far but hopefully now it sits on a different grove and won't leak! I filled to the top with grease in the seal also...both front and rear.


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## lilbigtonka

i use mobil 1 vtwin rick and i swear by it i noticed my bike runs smoother, quieter, but still doesnt help with the leaking problem on the seal. i thought maybe thicker oil would help which it might but not by much. good oil though def worth it, and doesnt break down for a long long time


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## jrpro130

Yea the problem is that we don't run oil long enough to see the benefits of synthetic. That's why I was running dyno. I pushed my rear seal in too far by about 1/4" so we will see if that is good or bad. It is not sitting on the same groove. I can say that much. 

So who said double seals don't work? I think it would. If they fit...


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## cowboy316911

Whats the story on the seals????I have 13HRS....on my new brute and she is bleeding from the rear:aargh4: thats only 36 mi. WTF I called kawai and was told bring it in it is covered under warrenty the guy said it is a very common problem. He acted like it was as normal as having to put gas in it.?.?. He said there was no upgraded or after market seal, typical parts guy ,because as I read and seen there is atleast on other seal out there. Can any one put a pair of calipers on a seal and tell me the mesurments? I have a book of seals at work I might be able to find one 2, or 3 thousands tighter in the center to fit the shaft a little better might be all it needs. I am a custom fab.for a mega yacht/super sportfish boat company. If we can seal out the grit and grim off salt and growth Im sure we can find a seal to hald up to sand and mud ,our boat shafts are spining alot faster and longer than our 4 wheelers....
I also dont think it is wear on our shafts as much as just cheap seals with 13hrs how much wear could there actually be on my out put shaft:thinking:...Endless hours and miles on my grizz still no leaks! But not as fun to ride as my Brute


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## gpinjason

My buddy just got his bike out of the Kawi dealer... he got the front diff completely rebuilt, rejetted, and all other maintenance done... While he had it in there the service guy told him that he was gonna go ahead and fix the leaking rear seal... this bike is an 05 model, so no warranty... he said that it's a common problem and they are testing out some new seals to see if they will hold up better... he installed the new seal at no cost, and told my buddy to keep them posted on how it holds up... 

So I don't know if this guy was just making stuff up, and just threw the same kind of seal in it, or if this is really legit... we'll find out I guess... hopefully Kawi is finally going to try to fix this issue


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## CAGLE1

I read on another forum, believe it was chuck750 that said kawasaki had a new seal and some kind of boot out to fix the leaking seal problem, but I could be wrong. Sorry if I am.


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## BIGPUN

what forum was it


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## sjf323

http://www.nyrocatv.com/forum.cgi?viewtopic=28909


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## rmax

when i replaced rear seal at 500mi , i set it to deep an then relized if i set it a little deeper i could put a second seal in now with 850mi plus no leaks , front seal just started leaking so i ordered 2 seals i will try this on the front also

note. the rear seal on mine would start leaking around 70-100mi. had changed it several times the last time i was pis-ed off an in a hurry an gave it a pretty hard hit an set it to deep then saw i could get the second seal to seat, worked for me


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## jctgumby

rmax said:


> when i replaced rear seal at 500mi , i set it to deep an then relized if i set it a little deeper i could put a second seal in now with 850mi plus no leaks , front seal just started leaking so i ordered 2 seals i will try this on the front also
> 
> note. the rear seal on mine would start leaking around 70-100mi. had changed it several times the last time i was pis-ed off an in a hurry an gave it a pretty hard hit an set it to deep then saw i could get the second seal to seat, worked for me


 

Hmmmmm :thinking: Might be worth looking into


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## bruterider27

Idk if they came out with a new seal or not cause I got a 2010 and I have to take it to the dealer tomorrow ill find out and post it when I do


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## greenbudds

so has the double seal trick work yet ????


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## bruterider27

I asked the dealer and they said no change that they know of


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## rmax

*seals*



rmax said:


> when i replaced rear seal at 500mi , i set it to deep an then relized if i set it a little deeper i could put a second seal in now with 850mi plus no leaks , front seal just started leaking so i ordered 2 seals i will try this on the front also
> 
> note. the rear seal on mine would start leaking around 70-100mi. had changed it several times the last time i was pis-ed off an in a hurry an gave it a pretty hard hit an set it to deep then saw i could get the second seal to seat, worked for me


not got a chance to try it yet, been busy on a little ninga, it has a problem burning holes in the piston ,an trying to find out why


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## rmax

*seals*



rmax said:


> not got a chance to try it yet, been busy on a little ninga, it has a problem burning holes in the piston ,an trying to find out why


looked at a set of cases in shop today, two seals will not work in front, not enought room, but will work in rear seal, on the front seal the bearing sets to close, the rear bearing sets futher back, an if you are carefull u can install a second seal, like i said i did it by accident


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## FABMAN

hay check this out! http://www.kawieriders.com/forum/ka...you/97960-rear-seal-leak-fix-kawi-update.html


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## LM83

This is what kawi gave me for my rear output seal fix. 150 miles on it and no problems. It's still a prototype kit right now, thats what they told me anyway.


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## phreebsd

that will stop it for normal riding but i'd bet mud riders are still looking at frequent replacement.

you know though... i bet if u got some of that thick marine grease and put under the cap that covers everything that may be the ticket there..

i want that new kit to play with!


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## LM83

phreebsd said:


> that will stop it for normal riding but i'd bet mud riders are still looking at frequent replacement.
> 
> you know though... i bet if u got some of that thick marine grease and put under the cap that covers everything that may be the ticket there..
> 
> i want that new kit to play with!


 I only ride in mud/water/ponds. Just ol grey sloppy swamps. I rode 50miles this past weekend in some very very nasty stuff, mud was caked on my skids up past the driveshaft, had about a 4 mile ride back to the truck and I left the mud on there on purpose just to see what would happen (someones gotta test it out right?) Absolutely no oil leak what so ever. Granted, all seals will have to be replaced at some time but whats better, changing the seal after every ride or once a year or so? Plus if Kawi does a recall on the brutes and supplies everyone with the kits for free no matter what its an upgrade from the naked seal they come with. But your right about the marine grease....thats what mines packed with. Dealer suggested it to me. I think Kawi needs to hurry up, stepup, admit their design flaw, and supply these kits to the public....FOR FREE!


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## phreebsd

im with ya there. they might as well do that for the front as well. and look at modifiying how the front diff seals seal and are protected.


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## LM83

I agree. Gotta pay to play I guess. Sucks having 10 g's in something that you have to constantly change seals in. I'm lucky though, have a great dealership that works with us. They understand that when we buy the bigger bore atv's that our intentions are mods,mud,and water. All they ask is that they are clean when brought in. Not a bad deal imo.


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## DRZfour00

We need part numbers!!


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## jrpro130

x2, I want to try that out! Where can we get em? lol


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## Polaris425

see this thread:

http://www.mudinmyblood.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7860


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