# Another mod for front diff



## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

Ok I was looking at the cage that the bevel gears ride in and the 16 tooth gears have slots for oil to get behind the gear but the smaller ten tooth one don't. The big one don't wear on the cage but every diff ive done the cage is worn bad wear the small ones ride. So i was thinking of putting a small grove where I have the yellow mark to let the oil get behind the race and it shouldn't wear as bad. Im thinking that the cage is getting worn and not letting the gears have enough tooth contact there for binding and there goes the teeth on the gears. Let me know what you guys think and the pics are from a worn out cage but I got a new one on the way.

(2011 750 I should be working on it instead of talking about it)


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

You mean the gear actualy rides against the case with no way for oil to get behind it? No thrust washer..nothing? Who designed that? :bigeyes: Sure, I'd put a groove in it too but maybe not quite that wide.


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

Yes it rides rite on the case. The yellow was just for the pics. I was thinking about using the dremel with those small cut off wheels to put the grove in it. What do you think on an angle or just straight like the marks I have on there.

(2011 750 I should be working on it instead of talking about it)


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

brutemike said:


> Yes it rides rite on the case. The yellow was just for the pics. I was thinking about using the dremel with those small cut off wheels to put the grove in it. What do you think on an angle or just straight like the marks I have on there.
> 
> (2011 750 I should be working on it instead of talking about it)


I think I would bevel the top edge just so it has a better chance of being spread under the gear...kinda like they do with the rod bearings for even distribution out of the channel.

Which direction would be best? I guess we have to think of how it rotates in and out of the oil..kinda let it have a skooping action.


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

I don't want to put the groves sideways it might weaken the case more. Heres a pic of the case i just broke and one of the gears that ride in there. I would like to get the case made out off something stronger like billet or something else other then cast.

(2011 750 I should be working on it instead of talking about it)


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Wow...unbelieveable. Yeah something has to be done.


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## kdixer (Apr 14, 2010)

How much are you guys letting your bike spin 3 wheels?


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

kdixer said:


> How much are you guys letting your bike spin 3 wheels?


Personaly I don't let it...well..almost none. Maybe that's one reason I have had no diff issues.


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## MUDRIDER2012 (Apr 28, 2012)

Is it bad for the front diff to spin 3 wheels?


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

MUDRIDER2012 said:


> Is it bad for the front diff to spin 3 wheels?


Well apparently making the planetary and spider gears work like that pushes them out on the shaft and against the case which doesn't get enough oil to stop from wearing into the case. Turning corners or circles does the same thing. So...I guess this design has an issue with prolonged activities like that. Another reason to jack up that side when changing the oil and overfilling it some. I have always done that....and I guess I will continue. Might help.


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

In the mud who knows how many wheels are spinning. A lot of the time there under water lol. I will get a decent fix for this sooner or later. Thinking some custom machine working.

Sent from my C771


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## kdixer (Apr 14, 2010)

When the front tires are turning at different speeds around turns and such, the spider gears to do not turn no where near fast enough to starve the components of oil.

But when just one wheel spins excessively, such as in a mud pit, the spinning wheel spins twice as fast as it would be turning if both front wheels where spinning. And while this is going on the spider gears are spinning in the carrier. Prolonged spinning will starve the diff components of oil, obviously. The truth is that most diffs, especially ones equipped with a locker, are not really designed to be ran at length with just one wheel spinning. If you are hammering on it in a mud hole with just one wheel spinning, the parts inside the carrier will starve themselves of oil and sieze up. This results in broken gear teeth which then lodge elswhere in the diff and displace other components. This is known as a grenaded diff.

The solution is simple, maintain your locker and use it when stuck. It will eliminate alot of headaches.

On quads running huge mud tires, you have to pay to play. I would not run 35" boggers on my trucks 1/2 ton axles and expect them to hold up in a mud bog. So it is a little unreasonable to expect a stock diff designed to run 25" tires to hold up to 30" aggressive mud tires.


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

Its just irritating because I don't hear about any other bike blowing there diffs except the cage in the front of the rzrs.

Sent from my C771


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## kdixer (Apr 14, 2010)

brutemike said:


> Its just irritating because I don't hear about any other bike blowing there diffs except the cage in the front of the rzrs.
> 
> Sent from my C771


I agree. But for whatever reason people seem to hate using the diff lock lever on the brutes. I suppose it is easier on most other quads where you just flip a switch and forget it.


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## kygreen (Oct 15, 2011)

Gosh dangit I just rebuilt my diff literally just took it for the test I did the pin mod but just read on this one now, say wile I'm at it still looking for the crown and pinion for a front diff of some one blew there cage? Btw people jumping in 4x causes bad things to happen still can't believe I forgot


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## filthyredneck (Feb 10, 2010)

kdixer said:


> I agree. But for whatever reason people seem to hate using the diff lock lever on the brutes. I suppose it is easier on most other quads where you just flip a switch and forget it.


Truth is, for all us guys running big tires, if we pull the yellow lever and give it much gas its almost guaranteed to bust something....only 1 front tire pulling seems to be alot more forgiving. 
*I dont hammer on my brute ever in 4wd though, I'm a creeper in the nasty stuff....just let the tires do the work. 

"Killing Time Using Tapatalk 2"


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## kygreen (Oct 15, 2011)

filthyredneck said:


> Truth is, for all us guys running big tires, if we pull the yellow lever and give it much gas its almost guaranteed to bust something....only 1 front tire pulling seems to be alot more forgiving.
> *I dont hammer on my brute ever in 4wd though, I'm a creeper in the nasty stuff....just let the tires do the work.
> 
> "Killing Time Using Tapatalk 2"


Yea the diffloc cage twists apart horrible design worst part about its been the same diff since 2004 the 2012 diff looks the same except they put a funny looking gaurd over the actuater


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

You know...after all these years of reading about all the issues with the cages I have actualy backed mine off enough so it will slip the disks in an extreem situation rather then risk it. Like having a solid limited-slip.


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

bump(a lot of diff talk lately)


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## dman66 (Feb 20, 2011)

Is it true that when you would pull on the yellow diff lock handle,on dry ground,fully engaged,that it is extremely hard to turn the front handlebars ? Can you just pull the yellow handle say 1/2 way to 3/4 way to where you can get enough diff lock to pull out of a situation,without damaging stuff ? I frequently get on a creek bank where I would get stuck with the rear tires in the creek and the front tires up on the bank,and I pull the yellow handle to help pull out - usually both fronts stay on the ground during this,but can be difficult to steer.


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## Nate_1503 (Jan 17, 2012)

I would say your fairly safe unless your right thumb gets excited then its a recipe for disaster at some point anyway


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## Takeum (Sep 18, 2012)

Well,,,, I just decided not to replace the dff clutch pack assembly,,,, I was tinkling maybe of replacing them for better traction in 4 wd, but if all that happens is blowing the diff up with big tires,,, I think I'll just eave the old stuff in there and hopefully it won't work so grea next time I pull the yellow lever,,,,


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

Takeum said:


> Well,,,, I just decided not to replace the dff clutch pack assembly,,,, I was tinkling maybe of replacing them for better traction in 4 wd, but if all that happens is blowing the diff up with big tires,,, I think I'll just eave the old stuff in there and hopefully it won't work so grea next time I pull the yellow lever,,,,


 That is not going to blow ur diff IMO its your right thumb i have blown a few over the years and more blown without the diff loc on.


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## Takeum (Sep 18, 2012)

Just a thought for you guys who want strengthein those gears and cages... This is what those guys running the off road cars like Suburu nd other use in their gearboxes to insure extra strength... They freeze their gears and parts they want strengthened to sub zero degree temps and it keeps things from breaking...Just wondering if anyone has this yet in maybe one of these differentials,,,, I know the cage deal would work maybe to strengthen it, and diffenately the spider gears and pins... From what I looked at here on the Internet,,, a lot of companies do I now, and possible to have this done without a mortgage on your house...


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## Takeum (Sep 18, 2012)

Opps,,,, it's called cryogenics guys,,,,


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## Takeum (Sep 18, 2012)

Here's alitte more information on who does this sort of stuff and benefits, costs and such,,,,,
Cryogenic Processing, Professional Cryogenic Metallurgy & Coatings, Powder Coating, Ceramic Coating, REM Gear Polishing, Sandblasting, Atlanta, Georgia


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## Takeum (Sep 18, 2012)

The Cryorem process looks like the ticket for gears.... It causes the oil to adhere to metal as well as strengthen..I'd love to send in an order and have my spider gears and maybe cages done... What ther parts would you guys suggest?


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

I wonder how much it would cost to have gears and cage done hummmm.:what:


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## Takeum (Sep 18, 2012)

It reads that its generally only 10% to 20% of the tools cost usually....


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

Im waiting on our metallurgest from work to talk to him about this and see if its worth it or not...


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## Takeum (Sep 18, 2012)

Says that most get a 300% gain inn strength... If that's the case.., the spiders and cross pin would definitely gain by having this done,,, Athe Cry Rem maks the oil adhere as well,,,Huge plus IMHO

---------- Post added at 01:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:11 PM ----------

Mike,,, you live near Bristol Pa by chance? I actually was Born there....lower bucks county hospital,,,,


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

Takeum said:


> Says that most get a 300% gain inn strength... If that's the case.., the spiders and cross pin would definitely gain by having this done,,, Athe Cry Rem maks the oil adhere as well,,,Huge plus IMHO
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:11 PM ----------
> 
> Mike,,, you live near Bristol Pa by chance? I actually was Born there....lower bucks county hospital,,,,


Never herd of it bud im in the southwest corner of pa.I think that guy from work is gone already but I will get in touch with him next week. We need to get a price estimate on the four gears and cage just to see if its worth trying.I think the biggest problem is that cheap *** cage they ride in and theres no need to get the pin done. There was someone on here that had this treatment done on a AC but cant remember who maybe he will chime in.


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## Col_Sanders (May 16, 2010)

There is a place here in LA that does a lot of work for Can Am racers and such. Cajun Cryogenics is the name of it.


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## Injected (Mar 21, 2010)

I had a 2003 Chevy ZR2 4x4. they had aluminum front diffs in the automatics, Cast iron diffs in the manual trans, all S10's were built this way. It wasnt the gears that were causing the diff failures. The aluminum housing would flex. We found with the iron front diffs, the diff failures dropped significantly. 
That being said, im not sure hardening the gears would make a difference worth the cost


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

I really think all the problems with the diff is that chincy cage they ride in.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Man ive been crazy lucky with mine. I use the yellow lever at just about everyhole I think is going to be "bad" or high chance of getting stuck. Not to mention every bearing in it is shot from water in it i don't know how it's still in there. Take it when im stuck im done I don't hammer on it, but still warn out diff/full diff lock.. Definately needs a rebuild now since I just said that or first time I touch lever next it's going to shatter...


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

Waddaman said:


> Man ive been crazy lucky with mine. I use the yellow lever at just about everyhole I think is going to be "bad" or high chance of getting stuck. Not to mention every bearing in it is shot from water in it i don't know how it's still in there. Take it when im stuck im done I don't hammer on it, but still warn out diff/full diff lock.. Definately needs a rebuild now since I just said that or first time I touch lever next it's going to shatter...


Just jinxed urself better get that front diff kit.lol


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