# Possibly becoming a cat owner, input & thoughts please...



## JPs300

Had a couple offers on trading my harley for 1000+ cc cats. Owners are on HL, may be on here as well, they can comment too if they like. 

I have no personal experience w/ them, so I'm looking for general pros and cons, comon issues(minor or major), general reliability(I'm coming off a pretty wildly built up "300" honda that snaps axle like twizzle sticks), ride quality, things like that. I'm looking to step up to a big bore bike, but was just planning to go stock w/ clutching as I want something as reliable as possible while having the big power snap off the line. Now I have these offer on the table and which would seem to be really nice bikes, but I want something that I can run beside my buddy's XMR and not work on any more than he does his(which has been nill since he got it a few months ago). 

Main one I'm considering is a '09 thundercat trv. - It has an 1100cc speedwerx motor including cams & stage 3 heads(nitrous kit used on previous motor comes with it but is not hooked up), WCD, 4" catvos lift, 'rilla prop shaft, new front & rear diffs, race pod & race ecu w/ pc5 tune, snorkels(dual air), rad relocate, brand new 29.5 terms(to go on stock wheels), and other associated misc. 

Other possibility is an '08 t-cat 950. - It has a 1040cc kit, race pod & ecu, two sets of tires & rims, WCD, 3000# warn winch. Guy says he has over $17k in receipts, but the above bike would seem to be a better deal. 

Any input is greatly appreciated, thanks guys. 
- Jp


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## J2!

Well the 1100 sounds like the better deal, but it is bored bigger so it will probably be less reliable. I have heard of people having issues with the speedwerx stuff in the cats. When I took my bike to AMR to have it built, he had a couple of these motors there doing some experimenting trying to design his own parts for them. One of these motors had a speedewerx kit in it and it wasn't right at all. The biggest issue was the cams weren't right. The kit was put in by a reputable builder but they could never get it to run right. And they also had issues with a few other internals, but I can't remember exactly what they were right this moment. The bike you are looking at might run great, maybe speedwerx finally got all the bugs worked out of their kits. Just thought I would share what I have heard on these. IMO, That 1040 probably runs just as strong though, and more reliable, especially if it hasn't had the juice put to it.


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## greenkitty7

that WCD with the 1040 ought to run straight NASTY.


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## JPs300

It seems both are the same CC; just as AC calls their 950 a 1000, Speedwerx calls their 1040 an 1100...lol. 

So, both bikes have basically the same engine, one is a 2-up chassis(trv) w/ the 4" catvos and under 10hrs on the drivetrain, the other is more "thoroughly tested" and has 2 sets of aftermarket wheels & tires. - Since I'd be trading even for either, I'd probably be best of to get the 2-seater to keep myself in a happy home and the 4" kit is worth more than having extra wheels & tires. 



greenkitty7 said:


> that WCD with the 1040 ought to run straight NASTY.


sure looks like it does......


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## greenkitty7

I didnt realize the trv was ryan estis' bike. That thing IS bad fo sho! I dont know about notso42's bike... But ryans is definitely a hoss!


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## JPs300

greenkitty7 said:


> I didnt realize the trv was ryan estis' bike. That thing IS bad fo sho! I dont know about notso42's bike... But ryans is definitely a hoss!


 
Yep. The deal is officially made, Ryan and I meet Friday evening for the swap.


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## Polaris425

nice! Post up some pics!


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## JPs300

Will do. Picking it up Friday evening and gonna race Saturday @ RYC, maybe get lucky and re-pay my fuel expenses - lol.


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## JPs300

Is it 2 o'clock yet? I'm ready to roll!


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## Polaris425

gettin close! Actually, it IS 2pm Est.............. haha! SO GO!


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## greenkitty7

So how did your new bike perform this weekend? bring home any brass?


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## JPs300

LOLs - They didn't run the race Sat, waited till Sun when I wasn't there. My buddy won the first race on his XMR, then took 2nd in the other race. 


I left a little after 2 and ended up meeting him in Pensacola, thus roughly 20hrs round trip. I got back at 9am Sat, had to swap tires & head out. I'm definitely liking it so far. Few little things to work out and change to my liking, but that is to be expected.


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## JPs300

Biggest issue is w/ the catvos 4". He had run it previously w/ stock springs and 2" spacers. He just put new shocks/springs on it before I got it, and had also recieved the springs for it from catvos. - First time I took it for a spin, when deceling into a corner it would stuff the outside front all the way to the fender(mind you, this was still on the 26" stock tires) and try to superman me over the bars. SOOO, apparently the stock springs aren't nearly stiff enough for the geometry Catvos set the shocks at. 

While swapping tires to head out I also swapped to the Catvos springs. After just a few hours riding they settled so much it was back to the same thing. The front was sitting 2-2.5" compressed and was way too soft. - Just as a big storm was rolling in I snapped an upper ball joint. After getting it apart for inspection, it was obvious to see that the joint had been over-extended when the suspension over-compressed. 

Catvos stands the shocks up square, and apparently where they mounted them on this bike takes too much away from the springs' leverage to properly support the bike. Putting the spacers back on would probably do the trick, but IMO is a band-aid for bad geometry. - Though I hate to grind & weld on the powder coat, I'm going to cut the lower mounts off and build new ones 2-3" closer to the tire than where they are now while still holding the correct height.



_***not trying to diss catvos here, the craftsmanship and parts included are very nice. BUT, there's no reason for the geometry to be so different that stock shocks/springs can't do their job._


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## Polaris425

I wonder if that was done at the origonal customers request? Like you said most the time I see there stuff at a higher angle...


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## JPs300

Maybe. Over on the other forum I'm hearing guys complaining about this kit being too stiff. - My shocks stand vertical w/ the standard catvos 4" upper mount. Ryan said he was fine w/ the stock springs and the 2" spacers, but IMO spacers on this app are a band-aid for bad geometry. I'd rather keep my smooth ride quality & maintain ride height by moving the lower mount out to increase the leverage.


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## greenkitty7

that wont maintain ride height though... the further out you move them the lower it would sit right?


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## JPs300

I will make the brackets correspondingly taller to maintain ride height while increasing the shock/spring leverage. - Check the thread on my "300" honda, this ain't my first rodeo.


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## Polaris425

I still want to see pics!!!! :bigok:


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## greenkitty7

ive seen your thread, just didnt understand that you were gonna change the shock brackets as well.


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## JPs300

Ok, so *k*ustom ball joint held up well and new shcok mounting points work perfectly. Had a great time riding Sat evening/night. 

Tune is WAY off. Just sitting idling at night ever other combustion hit is blowing an nice 6-10" blue flame out the tail pipe and the head pipes are glowing red. - Thing is way way way over-fueled at idle and part throttle. 

...before noticing that, just playing in 2wd in sugar sand I gave a slight hit off the line to the XMR and still edged him maybe half a tire in roughly 100 yards before the trail was too wash-boarded to stay in it. Motor is making some solid power with a lot more to go with cleaning up the tune. 

I've gotta check on dyno-jet's site but I believe I can download the PC5 software and get to work. I'll throw my LC1 wideband on and start making some runs and tweak it accordingly. - I'll probably run through valve lash and change the plugs first just to be sure. 

......and before it's said again.... 








I took some yesterday, but didn't have time to get them uploaded. I'll get them on my PB tonight and post them up. - I even took some showing my altered front shock mounts. I re-plumbed the belt snorks w/ all 2" flex duct, ran two 3/4 pvc risers(one for the crankcase breather and one for the fuel tank and diff vents), and relocated the oil cooler up top.


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## JPs300

Gonna dink with the exhaust a little too. The speedwerx pipe is a bit overly loud for most of our riding. - My buddy took it for a little spin so I finally got to hear it other than from on the bike. IMO, it's a tad tinny sounding and louder than it needs to be.


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## JPs300

PICS!!!!





































wifey mode:










need to shrink this one and make it my avatar:


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## JPs300

New front shock bracket beside original:









I cut one original tab off, worked off the remaining one to build mine then cut it off and finish welded my tabs.




Snorks + oil cooler relocate. The rad relocate & main snorkel risers are as they were from him, I hard plumber the engine breathers to the one 3/4 snork & little filter, and will be doing the same w/ the vent hoses(fuel tank & both diffs - didn't have time to finish before going riding). I also re-plumbed the belt intake & exhaust w/ 2" flex duct hose instead of the 1.5" radiator hose he had. 




















dual 2" into the air box, 2" belt intake and 2" belt exhaust, plus breathers/vents & oil cooler and radiator hoses.....gets pretty busy under the plastics:


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## Polaris425

nice!!!!


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## J2!

Looks great !! Keep an eye on those flex hoses, that spa hose won't last very long before it starts leaking. Seen it happen a lot with that stuff, that's why I done mine in all pvc pipe and rubber couplings where I had to.


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## JPs300

Thanks guys. 

It's not spa hose. - I work for an industrial rubber & hose company; that's a heavy duty commercial ducting/vacuum hose. It has a fabric braid enforcement in the cover, and has a poly covered metal wire helix. - Everyone in our group uses it for snorkel jobs, same stuff has been on my 300 for several years now w/o any issues.


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## greenkitty7

good idea on the crank case vent... i just looped a hose several times above my airbox, and reattached it to the airbox... fill my airbox all the time, drain it and no milk! only way i milk the cases is bringing it in the exhaust pipe... only when i flip it though.


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## JPs300

I didn't have much time yesterday evening, but I checked exh valve lash(in spec) & checked the spark plugs. - I then put my wideband on each cylinder and checked it @ idle; found what I expected from seeing the plugs. 

Rear cylinder is idling around 17.8:1(way lean), front cylinder is idling around 11.8:1(way rich). Split the difference and they'd be close. - I didn't have time to take it for a ride, but I may make some adjustments before hand as I don't want to risk it any more than I already have. As is, the rear cylinder is trying to torch itself and the front is trying to pinch the ring lands. From what I have rode it I would say above half throttle is likely closer, but obviously @ idle it is very wrong and I know at lower cruising throttle levels it isn't any better. 



- It's been noted on HL that these may not fire the rear cylinder @ idle. However, I wouldn't think that to be right, as the head pipe is glowing. That would make me believe it's firing, but lean. The rear spark plug has no fuel ring at the base and the entire ceramic is frosty white. The ground strap and even the face of the threads show a lot of purple and blueing of the metal. The front plug shows a heavy fuel ring at the base, the entire ceramic is blackened, and there's no identifiable heat in the strap or threads.


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## JPs300

greenkitty7 said:


> good idea on the crank case vent... i just looped a hose several times above my airbox, and reattached it to the airbox... fill my airbox all the time, drain it and no milk! only way i milk the cases is bringing it in the exhaust pipe... only when i flip it though.


 
Thanks. Not sure about yours, but the 1000 has two crankcase breather hoses that each tie into what they call the "burp bottle" which then has a single line looped up to the air box. Ryan had a section of 1" hose running from the "burb bottle" under the handle bars, up and zip tied to one of the snork risers w/ the little filter slipped in the end. The burp bottle/tank was sitting so that the front plastic piece wouldn't bolt to the fenders under the bars. 

I cut a hole in the snorkel mounting plate to run the 3/4" pvc up through, lowered the tank down under the plastics and used a short section of hose to couple it on. - I have a second hole cut right beside it so that the three vent hoses will be hooked up to mirror the crankcase breather, just didn't have time to finish it all up before the ride/when I took these pics.


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## J2!

JPs300 said:


> I didn't have much time yesterday evening, but I checked exh valve lash(in spec) & checked the spark plugs. - I then put my wideband on each cylinder and checked it @ idle; found what I expected from seeing the plugs.
> 
> Rear cylinder is idling around 17.8:1(way lean), front cylinder is idling around 11.8:1(way rich). Split the difference and they'd be close. - I didn't have time to take it for a ride, but I may make some adjustments before hand as I don't want to risk it any more than I already have. As is, the rear cylinder is trying to torch itself and the front is trying to pinch the ring lands. From what I have rode it I would say above half throttle is likely closer, but obviously @ idle it is very wrong and I know at lower cruising throttle levels it isn't any better.
> 
> 
> 
> - It's been noted on HL that these may not fire the rear cylinder @ idle. However, I wouldn't think that to be right, as the head pipe is glowing. That would make me believe it's firing, but lean. The rear spark plug has no fuel ring at the base and the entire ceramic is frosty white. The ground strap and even the face of the threads show a lot of purple and blueing of the metal. The front plug shows a heavy fuel ring at the base, the entire ceramic is blackened, and there's no identifiable heat in the strap or threads.


Funny you mentioned about one cylinder not firing. When I was hanging out at Southern Ridge alot and watching them tune bikes, the arctic cat racing team, Devon would tune their 1000's. Not sure "exactly" what he was doing to them, but on their racing bikes he would tune them so when they were idling they would only fire on one cylinder. Then when you would tach it up to about 2000 rpm's the other cylinder would fire up. It sounded like pure crap when idling but when you hit the throttle man o man. Maybe yours has been tuned similar to this since it can and has been done. Just something to look into. Hope you get it running right. :bigok:


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## JPs300

Thanks for the info. - I'm hearing a lot of stories about the PC5 randomly loosing it's tune on the t-cats. Hopefully the guys who tuned it originally can email me the tune they had for it and I can compare w/ what currently comes up on the pc5 map. - might be as simple as just re-uploading the correct tune. 

If that's the case, seems checking on it from time to time will be a must. Way to go dyno-jet; not a big deal to check when changing the oil, but not something I should have to do either.


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## greenkitty7

Completely agreed. Ive always heard that on idle that the tcats only fire on one cylinder but when tached up the back cylinder kicks in. I dont know much about the tcats cause i havent been around em much


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## JPs300

Got my old tuning lap-top linked up and downloaded the PC5 software. Tuned it was not. Not sure what happened, but all it had was a single curve of adjustments, nothing above or below the curve(cruising throttle, partial throttle accel, decel, ect). Front cylinder way different from the back, front had some fuel added @ idle(explainig the rich condition) while the back had boat loads of fuel being taken out @ idle(thus explaining the lean condition). 

I was late for getting out riding so I just threw the tune I had downloaded from Speedwerx site on it that they hosted from a customer. Was for their cams, slip-on, and snorkels. - Bike idled a lot better, but had a dead spot just off idle and stumbled/sputtered one cylinder at lower throttle levels. 

Got home, drove it on this tune & the original one with my wide band on, printed off the maps, studied them, then made my own map. - I apparently hurt my wideband sensor so no readings yet, but it's running the best it has yet and will tach out like a cheetah with it's tail on fire.


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## greenkitty7

sounds like you are getting pretty close with it!


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## RYAN.

I believe this is your old bike for sell now small world or he built the engine exactly like you described yours










2010 mud pro
31 laws HL wheels
PC3 and HMF
SLD delete 
Racked
Clutch kit


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## JPs300

I believe that is one of "mytater" s bikes. - He's had it up for-sale on CL and some places for a little while now. Somewhat similar build, but different machine. 

Unless some one bought stuff to put back on mine it was traded in with the rad relocat/snorks & the built motor, but EVERYTHING else was back to stock. The 4" Catvos, the WCD, the billet diff covers, the race pod/ecu, and a bunch of little stuff were all sold-off before I traded it in.


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## Ipullhondasout

Unless they have fixed them I would not get a tc with speedwerx cams period.


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## JPs300

Ipullhondasout said:


> Unless they have fixed them I would not get a tc with speedwerx cams period.


lol - check the original thread date. 


The SW cams actually work just fine, just a very specific tuning issue that only a couple people have figured out with them. - Eddie (notso42 on highlifter) was one of the first to get/run the SW cams back in '08 when these bikes came out and they have been flawless since John Cannon figured out the tuning for them. 

As for mine, I ended up taking them out in favor of the stock cams. They made 3-4 more peak wheel HP than the stockers, but made less average power, were a bit less responsive at cruising speed, & burned a lot more fuel cruising to do so. - Ok for a race bike, not much sense for a multi-use recreational bike.


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