# ...ugg...



## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

What does it sound like to you?

Brute Engine fail :: 20120919_173419_zps1e24bd94.mp4 video by Waddaman - Photobuckethttp://s1200.photobucket.com/albums...=view&current=20120919_173419_zps07bd6473.mp4


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## CRAZYCRACKAZ71 (Oct 8, 2011)

sounds like valves to me. ima listen again and more closer to it. hope it ant a rod bearing going out


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## lilbigtonka (Dec 30, 2008)

man i hope my brute never makes any noises like that......def sounds like more then valves


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

I think its top end, brutes definitely gone after this. Maintenance and broken parts is just ridiculous now. If I can't fix what ever the problem is or it costs a lot then it's getting parted out.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

To me...it sounds like one of the chain tentioner bars is warn way down and a chain is loose. ull the other side off and work the crank back and forth to see if you feel any play. Won't be much...just a little. Any play is chains.


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## adam6604 (Feb 5, 2012)

more evidence i should sell my brute after i rebuild it.. sucks man, hope you figure it out.


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## hondaforman06 (Jun 29, 2012)

i agree^^ if you figure anything else out let us know. im kinda curious cause thats what mine kinda sounds like. my rod bearings have no play so i kinda ruled it out


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## bigblackbrute (Jun 3, 2009)

sounds like rod bearings to me.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Well.. found A major problem...


















































About 300 trail kms and 20-30 hours...


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Taking engine out and tearing side cover and topend off to see damage. Definitely don't want to split cases just to sell the thing, strongly considering parting it out but I don't know jack about parting out quads and don't know what kind of cash I will get back so...


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## bigblackbrute (Jun 3, 2009)

First time i ever heard of a web cam doing that. 

FATBOYZ CUSTOMZ


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Never seen that in a cam either. Hydraulic pump and oil pump impellers because of water or air but not cam surfacing. I'd send them these pics and ask "WTF!"


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## jctgumby (Apr 23, 2009)

^ X2

I absolutely agree, send them the pics and get Web involved


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## J2! (May 8, 2010)

I've seen some minor flaking on some that have had ALOT of miles and juice shot to them, but never anything that bad. Like they said, send Web those pics and see what they say. Could have been a bad core to start with. Alot of reputable builders use them. Mines an AMR kit and it also has Web cams, no issues here, mine are Glenn's 2X cams ground to his specs.


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## DSC (Aug 1, 2011)

In all the years running Web cams, I've never seen anything like that. I've heard of some cams flaking and the one set i saw where do to tight valve lash. Nic, call when you can.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Getting all plugged up and pressure washed tomorrow for the big tear down... should be lots more pics tomorrow.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

So far so good top end, don't see anything wrong. Cylinders have a few tiny scratches but none that travel the entire length and there not deep, same with pistons. Timing chains need to be replaced and maybe guides too not sure. The wrist pin in perfect, the rod small end has a few tiny marks (more like discoloration then physical wear) so everything seems good.

I need to borrow a flywheel puller from my dealer and its Sunday so have to wait. My concern still is what was making that noise...lots of pics coming.
























































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Not a bad amount of work done considering it was a complete bike running and all friday night and now like this all done by 1 person.

Edit: The reason why the heads and pistons are so black is because it pukes oil into airbox because catch can sucks. + it pukes a lot of oil at idle and it was running for quite a while at idle before I took it apart because I was trying to diagnose the problem. And before you ask no, it was not ran low on oil I toped it up before every ride. You can see the nice brown tan color beneath and in some spots which tells me it's running good.


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## DaveMK1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Looks like it was running fine before you tore it down. With the exception of the cams. I would be a little bit concerned with the wrist pin end of the con rod's tho. actually looks like pitting. Could of been caused by contaminants in the oil. How did the wrist pins look?


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## narfbrain (Sep 25, 2012)

i have not heard any good tales from people using web cams...... i would recommend changing cams and giving it another shot as long as your wristpins do not have any exessive play to them also using a big bore engine also runs ALOT hotter i see you already have the relocate which is good but when running in alot of mud your cooling could still be inadequate have you upgraded your rad or water pump? asides from that i would put in a HIGH quality synthetic oil i dont know what you were using but i personally use the kawi sr-4 full synthetic asides from being expensive as hell (18.99/l here) makes a huge difference the oil even makes a noticable difference to how the bike starts and runs!!!! i know it sounds hard to believe but brutes love this stuff i wouldnt use anything else and everyone i know is switching to it!!!!!! one of my buddys with a 650 was burning noticable oil from the exaust hard starting he switched to it stopped burning oil starts good now and had noticable power increase.....for the rest of us its just added protection against the heat these things build i even have a whole pile of can ams switching to it (they seem to do better with some kawi in them too LMAO) i would try to get some added cooling to it switch to good oil and buy a set of NEW cams NOT REGRINDS you should get years more hard abuse on it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Wrist pins looked like brand new as they are (new with BBK last winter), and like i said rod looks kinda bad but really it's a discoloration some what i felt it and it was smooth. I will take a better look at it though.

As far as oil changing goes it was changed probably on average since the bbk was put in every 3-4 (short 3-4 hour rides) rides as I didn't ride it much this spring as I said.

Im in Canada and all I have done to cooling system is rad racked. I don't want to go anymore because when it gets cold with that rad relocate (in winter I do a lot of river riding lots of cold cold air) and it almost won't maintain a good enough tempature. In the hottest days of summer all I need to do is flick fan switch and even just crawling through the woods I can watch the temp gauge drop. Definately wasn't a heat problem I keep a very close eye on that. Also tuned it on a wideband myself with dale's help, it's running pretty much perfect but just a tad rich so when winter comes around it will even out. (oil all over everything atm from catch can) Plugs were new with bbk and in spec, I cleaned everything as much as humanly possible when I put it together the insides were spotless + right after cam break in I changed oil and filter.

Oil is always changed with 10w40 kawi oil and kawi filter. Especially since I installed the bbk and everything inside was perfect with no wear on anything and so far in this disassembly oil is getting every where it should nothing clogged etc. We will see bottom end soon enough but top end the oil did it's job. Oil was just changed 1 ride before all those pics were taking and it got black that fast even with the new filter.

As far as cams go they simply failed I took good care of my engine. oil/filter changes regularly, timing was set 2-3 times since bbk in winter and was always set to the loosest possible spec. Never over heated, never ran low on oil. Also as I said before I didn't even drive it hard since I got the bbk because I didn't want to break an axle. When ever anything on my brute even started to get bad or warn out it's replaced immediately.

Im sending the cams to web this week, we will see what happens. My biggest worry is still what did those chunks of metal do to the bottom end.. did they gets sucked into filter immediately or make there rounds through the engine first.... hopefully the filter but we will have to wait and see this weekend.


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## narfbrain (Sep 25, 2012)

i as well am in canada (northern alberta) and mine stock bore is still running pretty hot i will be doing the relocate and hl triple flow rad they still do ok in winter........as long as your not running in -35 as for the oil the sr-4 is 15-50 i believe and amazing oil like i say expensive but worth every penny of protecting your engine if your not running hot thats awesome but like i say i know a fair few people that have tried webcams and have always left them for hotcams what have you noone i know has had any luck with them whatsoever i would try changing them out for other cams as web will probably tell you you did something wrong anyways valve set over heating what have you but when you do put it back together i would highly reccommend trying the sr-4 especially with the slight discoloration on the rod ends like i say had my buddy with a 650 change out to it and another buddy with an 800 can am that rode the bike directly before and after the switch and immediatly switched his bike over after noticing the difference firsthand even though the can am dealer had just done a full service on his bike without even putting a ride on it....... may help to avoid any other future problems as it does have far superior protection but just trying to help but it is whatever you feel is right for your bike best of luck anyhow hope the bottom end still looks great and your up and rippin er up again soon


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Well ive been sick the last few days so didn't get much done. Hoping I feel better tomorrow so I can get those cases split. I did take my oil pump off though and just as i thought the pump drive rotors are chewed and mangled from the chunks.
























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Im not sure how much clearance there is supposed to be between the rotor and case.. not sure if it's warn right into the cases or it's supposed to be like that..


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## narfbrain (Sep 25, 2012)

tough call you would think it should have a certain amount of clearance there but does almost look warn in is it even all the way across? cant really tell from the pics..... but the outside of the oil pump wont be moving so you should be able to tell by lining it up a little bit and have a look to see if its just the rotor part of the pump or the whole area of the pump


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## crwBrute7504x4I (Oct 26, 2011)

I would replace those pump gears that thing should be smooth as a baby's butt! The case I would prolly try gentle sanding with very fine emery cloth and hope you can save it!


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Oh I'm pretty sure there shouldn't be any noticable wear on the case. Might plastiguage it or put a straightedge across it and use feeler guages and ask a Kawie machanic but its my opinion the more it has, the more leak-by between chambers it has and the lower oil pressure it will have. You may be looking at a new case if its too much.

What bothers me is I thought the oil pickup screen was supposed to catch anything big enough to hurt the pump. What's on top of the screen? And...its probably the lighting and angle but it looks like the wear isn't even across the surface...like its deeper on the left between the chambers like the case bearing is bad or chain too tight...or just not mated correctly somehow. Probably just the lighting.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Rotors/gears have to be replaced for sure, cases I will measure but I doubt i will replace it. the more and more damage I find the more and more likely it is I part the whole thing out. Not spending another 1k to fix this thing after just spending about 5k+ since this winter, especially just to fix it and then sell it.

The screen didn't do much, but it wasn't completely useless. There is a couple chunks on it but only like 2 or 3 and obviously there was a lot more then 2 or 3.

Nmk im kind of confused what your talking about at the end there to be honest.. This was at night so it wasn't crazy bright in the garage and the led flash is on making it able to see these pics. I will take better ones today, I am feeling a lot better so hopefully cases will be split by tonight.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Waddaman said:


> Nmk im kind of confused what your talking about at the end there to be honest.. This was at night so it wasn't crazy bright in the garage and the led flash is on making it able to see these pics. I will take better ones today, I am feeling a lot better so hopefully cases will be split by tonight.


I just meant it looked a little like the wear on the case wasn't flat..kinda more on one side then the other. It's probably lighting playing tricks.

When you pull the outer rotor out, does the shaft feel tight with the housing?


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

I went out and looked and it looks like it's warn really bad but it's actually nothing. I can slide my finger nail across it and its completely smooth.. strange but that's good. 

Looked up prices and the inner rotar is $7 and other is $9 which is a lot cheaper then I thought it would be.

Brute Engine fail :: 20120929_132930.mp4 video by Waddaman - Photobucket


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Split the cases and.. everything looks good! Crank journals are good. bearings have 1 small mark in each but still good.

Through shaft ball bearing seems rough but that's easily replaced.

Nmk you might second guess your thoughts about that screen. most of it is gasket material (I think it was the permatex grey I used to for rocker covers when I installed BBK, or oem im not sure..) but there is some small metal slivers in there that it's stopped.

Brute Engine fail :: 20120929_162122.mp4 video by Waddaman - Photobucket


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

What's all that trash at the pickup?


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Uhh.. already said gasket material.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Waddaman said:


> Uhh.. already said gasket material.


 
Sorry...missed that. Mostly looks pretty good. Is that case Main bearing OK?


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

The bearing insert for the left side of the case is good no scratches or anything (need to do all my measurements but id imagine it will be fine)

The ball bearing for the right side case seems OK but I still need to check it. Even if it is bad it's only $60 for the bearing so no big deal.

Through shaft bearings are definitely toast, and I think the bevel gear on the left side's bearings are gone too. Seems the bearings down at the bottom of the engine where the oil sits is where the metal did it's damage but still.. like $20 per bearing so $40 for shaft, $40 for the bevel gear.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Does anyone know of a chart or something someone may have that lists all the dimensions and wears specs of engine parts? Going through the manual for 10 mins to find 2 numbers and then 30 seconds to actually measure it is ridiculous.


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## myst3ry (Mar 5, 2011)

wow thats incredible amount of blood sweat and tears in her... what a sin this happened ... 
i feel for ya bud ...


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Thanks, it a really weird relationship between a person and a quad like this lol.

I've started doing some measurements and everything's is in spec as far as wear... in fact everything is literally perfect as far as main components. 3 things so far that the metal took out: Oil pump rotors, through shaft bearings, and 90 bevel gear bearings. So pretty much only the stuff that was at the very bottom when all the oil is at, as soon as it went to get pumped up it went to the filter and stopped there.

What worries me is the rod's small ends.. there's a bunch of tiny tiny scratches im not sure if that's going to be ok or not.. also no idea how they got there.. Keep in mind pics are greatly exaggerating the scratches since camera is right against it.

So far as parts I need are:
Head Gaskets
Base Gaskets
Coolant pump Gasket
All chains
Inner and outer 90 bevel gear bearings
through shaft ball bearing and rollar bearing
Oil pump rotor inner and outer
All oil seals
Rod bearings (just because there so cheap)
All coolant pipe o-rings
Coolant/oil pump bearing, and seals
rocker arm tapets
Piston/wrist pin C clips (dont want to risk reusing C-clips)
Cams (got to web yesterday.. we will see about warranty prob tomorrow)
PROPER LIQUID GASKET(as you can see from previous photo's)
fittings and hole for proper overflow bottle that oil made a mess of the combustion chamber
A couple of small case bolts that were rusted real bad
Aluminum acid to clean everything IF i can find some up here

Maybe's:

Side Cover gasket

Chain Guides or tentioners (not sure how to check for wear on them either)

Through shaft and 90 bevel shims (not sure if I can just change bearings and use same shims)

As far as other roller and ball bearings I really don't know how to check them for wear.. no real roughness in em but some are somewhat noisy..


























These pics were of the rod with the most scratches, other isn't as bad. As i said before it looks bad but running fingernail across you can't feel anything so idk..























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Should have took pics of wrist pins along with rod small ends.. ill do that tonight and get em up. Same thing tho u can see something on it but if you feel it there's nothing really there.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Also some of the start of my little engine report. might be a bit hard to understand but..

Main journal size: 42mm taper 0

Crank pin diameter: Rear rod: farthest from center: 40mm 90 degree offset: 39.99
Closest to center: 39.98mm 90 degree offset: 39.97 "Egged": .01mm aprox Taper .02 t0 .03mm

Front rod: farthest from center: 39.97mm 90 degree offset: 39.97mm
closest to center: 39.98mm 90 degree offset: 39.98mm "Egged": 0 Taper .01mm

Center of crank pin: (unwarn area): 39.98mm 90 degree offset: 39.97mm


Rear rod Big end: 43mm (straight down from rod) 90 degree offset: 43.02
Rear rod big end With bearings: 40.02mm (straight down from rod) 90 degree offset: 40.07mm egged: .05mm

Front Rod Big end: 43mm (straight down from rod) 90 degree offset: 43.01
Front Rod Big end with bearings: 39.99mm (straight down from rod) 90 degree offset: 40.06mm egged: .07mm 


Rear rod small end: 19.99mm 90 degree offset: 19.97mm egged .02mm
Front r0d skall end: 19.99mm 90 degree offset: 20.01mm egged .02mm


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)




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## hondaforman06 (Jun 29, 2012)

how did you pull the flywheel off the crank? i gotta pull mine also.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

you need a flywheel puller tool, threads onto the flywheel and has a bolt inside the tool that you tighten against the end of the crank and it pops the flywheel off.

I just borrow mine from local dealer, only takes a couple seconds to pop off.


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## jbb (Dec 20, 2011)

man that sucks buddy.... whatcha getting next? can am?


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Renegade XXC is what im shooting for. If a base model 1k comes up maybe that but.. really want the powersteering and Visco lok QE.

Already got all my mods planned out, lol. Custom dual exhaust 1 on each side and 31s no fender flares no floor boards. I will be running the brute for the winter I think though. By the time I get it fixed it will be late late season and no one will be buyin.. but I may get lucky.


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## filthyredneck (Feb 10, 2010)

Teaser pic  (just need to remove floorboards and add the duals)


"Killing Time Using Tapatalk 2"


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Looks awesome filthy, even has the same snorkel setup I want.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Alright I have some questions. Ordering parts, need questions answered.

1. How can you check crank ball bearing and tranny main bearings? Should I go by sound? Vibration? Roughness? I know what a bad bearing feels like but I have no experience with these bearings and don't know how they regularly behave. Im going to have to take it into the dealer to check it I think and really don't wanna do that..

2. Is there anything that I should replace that I may be missing? like something that would regularly go bad and it's just good measure to replace? Im ordering all chains and all seals btw.

3. How can I tell if guides are worn out? there's no specific measurement or anything can I just go by how far my adjusters are stuck out or will new chains tighten stuff up anyway?

4. Im getting dealer to change the rear through shaft ball bearing, front through shaft roller bear. As well as both inner and outer ball bearings for the bevel gear 90 degrees to the through shaft. What about my shims/gear back lash? Is it safe to guess that I can just use the ones I took out and it will be good or should I order shims in advance? Im going to check the backlash anyway but if I need to order shims the sooner the better.

5. Rod bearings online are sized by colors? how can I tell what color my bearings are?? mine are in spec but have light scratch marks on em so going to replace them but I don't want to get the wrong size..

6. For the coolant pump seals and bearings if I am correct there is one small bearing inside the cover, and a small regular seal behind that. and on the other side just the spring and strange seal that goes around spring? so 2 seals 1 bearing to cover everything in there?

7. The gear change lever cover/housing has a small seal. replacing that since i think it's about to go considering there was mud between the 2 lips of the seal. there are some small scratches on the bearing surface of the shaft (that little housing is the only thing holding that shaft what so ever nothing on the bottom.. though that was stupid but) should I just replace the housing and seal? seal is $6 and the housing with seal in it is $20? atleast thats what it shows on diagrams.

Any help appreciated!!!


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

I forgot one last thing. The rod main bearing cap nuts are supposed to be torqued to 25 ftlbs, but the only thing I can get to fit in there is a 1/4" socket anything other socket is to thick to fit between the nut and the rod.

How can I tighten them inside the cases? will a 1/4" torque wrench work??


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Waddaman said:


> I forgot one last thing. The rod main bearing cap nuts are supposed to be torqued to 25 ftlbs, but the only thing I can get to fit in there is a 1/4" socket anything other socket is to thick to fit between the nut and the rod.
> 
> How can I tighten them inside the cases? will a 1/4" torque wrench work??


To my limited knowledge, you have to install the rods before installing the crank in the case..atleast the manual is showing the crank on the bench while installing the rods...Filthy would know better..he's done it many times before.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

I was told I could do it crank in cases. Out of cases it would be a lot easier but I dont have a press. I could get dealer to do it but again... I really really don't want them to.. rather them not do anything but I have no choice on those other bearings cause I just don't have the equipment.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Oh...Ok...well good luck.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Question. An tips or tricks to get the primary and secondary seals out? There being awfully stubborn... Thanks


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## hondaforman06 (Jun 29, 2012)

for the water pump you put the bearing in from the back of the cover and you put the oil and mechanical seal in from the out side.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Thanks Honda. I thought it would be something like that. Do you know if I need a press to get that bearing in and out or can I get away with just a hammer and a socket to fit it?

About the primary and secondary seals.. I got em out. But broke my little seal puller tool (drum brake spring remover tool) and sliced my pinky to boot. That primary seals was literally melted around the outside and stuck to the cases, I had to bend/break about 1/4 of the metal ring inside the seal to release it's pressure and finally come out.


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## hondaforman06 (Jun 29, 2012)

the bearing can be pushed in by hand. or atleast i did mine like that but a hammer will work good too. with the oil seal you can do it like anyother seal but the mechanical you have to be carful with becouse the white parts are saramic


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Oh and by the way. Got my block back from dealer it cost me $221 in labor for apparently 3 hours work, to put the roller bearing in the cases backwards and it's making a bunch of noise and needs to go back. Dealers suck.


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## JeepJunkee (Jan 31, 2010)

Isnt it funny how a dealership, the place you should be able to go for any info you need never seems to do anything right. 

I know for a fact that a handful of dealers around my area outsource all of their engine work and the guy they send their stuff to just works out of his house.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Yea, it's pretty pathetic. There apparent "Kawie Engine Guy" that works there can't even put a bearing in right.. now im goina to have to wait god knows how long for them to order a new bearing and put it in.. if they try to charge me ill outright lose it.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

What are you guys using to seal up your crankcase after being split? I was told to use Permatex Ultra black (don't think I can link) and someone is trying to to tell me otherwise.. let me know.


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## mossyoak54 (Jan 16, 2012)

Waddaman said:


> What are you guys using to seal up your crankcase after being split? I was told to use Permatex Ultra black (don't think I can link) and someone is trying to to tell me otherwise.. let me know.


The black permatex is what I use on everything. 


Sent from the mans IPhone.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

All my above questions i have found answers for over the last few weeks. But still 3 remain.

1. How to torque on rods as all that fits is 1/4.. im probably just going to buy a 1/4" torque wrench and stick a pipe on the end of it to get the torque I need.

2. the chains and tenstioners thing.. tensioners obviously are OK but hard to tell if guides are good or not. Manual just says if there chipped or physically damage and there not so im assuming thats all I need. All new chains should tighten stuff up a bit.

3. The Crankcase sealer thing want to hear a few peoples thoughts. Was told to use anaerobic? . HOPEFULLY I will get my crankcase back together this weekend. All I need to replace in there now is rod bearings and they arrived at the dealer yesterday just gotta pick em up.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

well.. first off. I was cleaning my cases last night getting ready to put crank case back together today. Was looking over everything and of course oil screen is split on the very edge...and dealer had to order one.

Second, got my rod bearings from dealer (same size as OEM) and put rods on (not torqued exact still dont know what to use to do that..) and with both of them on there's some sort of hooking up on the sides of the rods in the center of crank pin... I cleaned everything like 2-3 times in a row, dried it off, blew compressed air on everything before installing.. I can tell this is just going to fight me every single step of the way..


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Guys still can't figure this out.. there is some sort of friction between the 2 side surfaces of the rods and it's catching very lightly. I don't know if this matters when it's running or not and it's driving me nuts trying to figure out what it is..


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## mossyoak54 (Jan 16, 2012)

Got plenty of assembly lube on it?


Sent from the mans IPhone.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

lots and lots of oil.

---------- Post added at 04:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:11 PM ----------

The side clearance is in spec also. If I force the rods apart to each side of the crank there is nothing, if I put them together even with no force something is catching some. I took them off and I can't see anything.. no signs of the catching or anything at all. But I also don't know if it did that before I took it apart because I never really checked it so I don't know if it was doing that before either.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

What color dots did the old inserts have and are they the same as the new ones? And when you say the sides, are you saying the sides against the bolts/studs? or the other sides. Rods that have been over heated or run a long time with too much clearance get egged. On larger rods it usually doesn't make it narrower just eggs up and down...but these smaller ones...who knows. Either way if you can mic-out each direction without the inserts in it might give you some insight.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Old inserts didn't have any color left on them so I just assumed they were OEM since all was in spec. So I told dealer to order OEM inserts which apparently are yellow.

I mean like the actual side of the rod, not the bearing but the Big End milled sides of the rods. 

Both sides are milled flat and smooth so when they touch either the side of the crank pin (on one side) OR the other rod (on the other milled side of said rod) they slide against the crank or rod depending which side it's slid too.

Now mine, are catching on the milled sides of the rod or rod's in the between the two. If each rod is pushed to it's corresponding side of the crank pin so that the side gap is in between the 2 rods it's all smooth as should be. when the rods are pushed together however there is a slight fetch up or catching between the 2 surface.

Im not sure if this matters or not if oil pressure is going to keep them separated anyway, or if they do truly rub each other while running. Either way I don't want to take a chance but I can't physically find a mark, raised edge or anything that is causing this..so it's very confusing and frustrating that I can't find the cause of it. But for all I know that's normal, and it was doing though before I even took it apart.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

And there is no question as to the fact that the pistons and rods are going back in the correct way...not reversed or upsidedown...nothing like that...right? Do you see anything different between the sides? Caps didn't get switched...just throwing stuff out there..


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

I am positive everything is in it's original position and in correctly. I had everything labeled and only took 1 apart at a time so should be all good. That's why im baffled this is happening..


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## brute for mud (Jul 15, 2010)

nmkawierider said:


> And there is no question as to the fact that the pistons and rods are going back in the correct way...not reversed or upsidedown...nothing like that...right? Do you see anything different between the sides? Caps didn't get switched...just throwing stuff out there..


or may have turner one 180 or both just a though I've done it before


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

The out marks are on the proper sides of the crank, also the rod big end is tapered on one side and there both wore a little differently and I have pics of that to know which is front and rear(also marked). Only thing that could be changed would be the caps. But still can't see it happening unless someone purposely went in there, took caps off both rods and switched em lol. 

Ill take them back off tomorrow and do a really really good look over on em and let you guys know whats up.. hopefully I can find the issue and get the majority of this engine back together next weekend. As long as I get no big issues that pop up it will be together by the weekend after next, can't wait.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Getting somewhere. First pic is of the rear rod, you can clearly see a mark developing on it after constant rubbing, spinning, rubbing, spinning trying to get something to develop to give me a clue.

On the front rod you can see on the same surface there is nothing. So there is some kind of bur on the outter ring of the milled face on the rod side (not cap). I only had like 20 mins tonight to figure this out, ill be out tomorrow to hunt down that stupid little bur.


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## Jakeincanada (Oct 30, 2012)

I've done a number of these engines to date. Listened to the vid, sounds like worn/loose cam chains thrashing around in there. Especially looking at the very light wear in the engine. Consistent with use more than causing an issue. BTW, the rods and crank are marked with either a circle or no circle, leading to 4 different combinations and thus 4 different bearing p/n's. You have to install the correct p/n's for the relevant tolerances. Doing 2 more KVF 750 motors currently before the end of November....

---------- Post added at 12:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 AM ----------

I mention the bottom end plain brgs as the parts guy seems to have just guessed at what you needed. 'OEM' sizes mean nothing.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

There was nothing wrong with my bearings or anything when I took em out everything is in spec.just replacing for good measure. As long as they are the same as what came out it will be good, I'm going to plastigage it to make sure clearances are right though.

I saw the circle things in the manual and couldn't find any on my parts so just going to do it the old fashioned way and check it myself. 

Wasn't chains it was a knocking noise. What ever it was(must have been cams or even oil pump that was mashed) I'm replacing pretty much everything but major major parts. And everything is in spec ready to go.

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## Jakeincanada (Oct 30, 2012)

I had a few where the chain had excessive slop, the tensioners were not doing the automatic thing, and the guides were hammering against the wall of the cylinder. Sounded like bottom end. I'm just suggesting this, as the wear in your motor looks pretty minimal, nothing in the rods look very worn at all. 

Also done a Kx450F with the same early cam chain failure, the tensioner not doing it's job. Anyways, the links should flex smoothly each way, and not show any signs of kinking. The manual will state a min measured length over the course of x number of pins. Something to make sure of, as it is a job done with the engine out....

Came across your post while researching bottom end failures on the KVF quads..

Mosltly from water ingestion, low oil, bad design. Plain brg on one side, proper bearing on the other. Reminds me of old British motorcycle crap...

---------- Post added at 03:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:22 AM ----------

Regarding the bad fitment of rods to the journal, I notice in your pic of the rods, you have them bolted together backwards. The recessed portion of the plain bearings are supposed to be on the same side and meet when fitted.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

?? What? manual specifically says rods are marked with an out Mark and that mark points to the outside of each rods corresponding sides.. they were on correctly. That's how it came apart that's what manual says and shows in pics.. the tapered sides of the big end point out and the squared edge goes in the middle

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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Well, I knocked some of the sharp edges that could be causing it to happen off and got a little result.

It only happens now if they are physically pushed together, and in reality when running there always going to be pushed away from each other from oil pressure. Even if they do touch it doesn't so much as hook and stop each other anymore but more like makes a slight vibration. So it should be good to go.

Waiting on my parts I ordered from cheap cycle. I can safely say I will never order from them again Ordered 2.5 weeks ago and now stuff is stuck in customs.. Still planning on having it running by the end of next weekend though. Crank case will be together this weekend.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Alright, so the good news is I got my bottom end together all went well! Bad news is ill be waiting on parts for a while so no riding next weekend for sure..

I got an issue that I knew was going to happen but need to know what you guys suggest for what size new shims to get. My DRIVE bevel gear seems to be tracking well, the driven though is to far pushed back so I need to pick up some smaller shims for that. From the pics can you guys make a guess what I should drop too? Thanks

















































































---------- Post added at 11:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 PM ----------

Just realized I will need to get the measurement of the shim I already got.. going out to garage to get it now..

It's 1.2 mm.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

**** if it don't look like it needs 2mms...maybe 3...can't be right..


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Wouldn't doubt that the dealer put the gear/shaft back in the housing wrong..


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Ill try to run it with no shim.. don't know if that's even possible but that will bring it in 1.2mm.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

With no shim it just jams against the drive bevel gear so.....im not really sure I need some help.

It says in the manual..:

Tooth Contact Adjustment
○Tooth contact location is influenced by drive gear position
more than by driven gear position. •Clean any dirt and oil off the bevel gear teeth. •Apply checking compound to 4 or 5 teeth on the output
driven bevel gear.

NOTE
○Apply checking compound to the teeth in a thin, even
coat with a fairly stiff paint brush. If painted too thickly,
the exact tooth pattern may not appear.
○The checking compound must be smooth and firm with
the consistency of tooth paste.
○Special compounds are available from automotive supply
stores for the purpose of checking differential gear
tooth patterns and contact. Use this for checking the
bevel gears.
•Turn the output driven shaft for 3 or 4 turns in the drive
and reverse (coast) directions, while creating a drag on
the drive bevel gear shaft. •Check the drive pattern and coast pattern of the bevel
gear teeth. The tooth contact patterns of both drive and
coast sides should be centrally located between the top
and bottom of the tooth, and a little closer to the toe of the
tooth.
If the tooth contact pattern is incorrect, replace the shim(s)
at the drive bevel gear and shim(s) at the driven bevel
gear, following the examples shown. Then erase the tooth
contact patterns, and check them again. Also check the
backlash every time the shims are replaced. Repeat the
shim change procedure as necessary.




So it says the DRIVE bevel gear influences the contact pattern the most. I have (came out when I first tore apart) 1x .5mm shim, and 2x.2mm shims all at once inside. And on the DRIVEN bevel it came with 1x 1.2mm shim. 

What is confusing me is I took both .2mm shims out of the drive bevel and left the .5mm in, and used the 1.2mm in the driven again. The gears were very very tight, making noise as they turned. but my contact still looks nearly the same?? Pics of them below. The back side of the DRIVE gear looks good, covering the entire tooth which is the drive side which is good. The drive side of the DRIVEN however is still on the very tip.

But in reverse, the DRIVE gear front side teeth are lacking a little, and the back side of the DRIVEN are contacting the entire tooth. Remember this is with .5mm on the drive and 1.2mm on driven. what should I do? I can't really put them any closer because there almost jamming as is??


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Just took all the white lithium grease off I was using at it was very light (dont have the proper marking grease) and used regular grease instead and it gave me a different result.. much better looking but I think I need the real deal to do this...


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## bworm989 (Oct 22, 2012)

**** dude goodluck with that hope all goes well. hope i never need to do that. i'm not that mechanically inclined .


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## eagleeye76 (May 7, 2010)

How does that plasti coat stuff work?


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Plasticoat? you mean Plastigage? All it is is a wax strip in a certain size, you torque on your rod or what ever you are measuring to the right spec and remove. You can measure how much it squishes and it will give you a measurement to how much oil clearance you have inbetween 2 said objects.


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## eagleeye76 (May 7, 2010)

Oh ok I never heard of that before. Thats a pretty slick idea. Thank for the crash coarse Waddaman! So assume the bigger the smudge the less of a flow of oil you get.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Yes. the more it's squished the less clearance there is so, less oil there but it is at a higher pressure.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Yep..been using plastiguage sense the advent of babbitted inserts to determine clearance between the insert and the crank.


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## eagleeye76 (May 7, 2010)

Hey thanks guys, and also thanks for not make me feel like an idiot with all the dumb questions I always ask. Well I think I've taken up enough room on ur thread for now. lol Thanks again for the info!


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

I got all my small parts today, ran into another small snag. Got my new oil pump rotars in and they have a little drag in them, I sanded down the housing and polished it so it's nice and smooth but it still drags ever so slightly. Is this expected from putting new rotors in an old housing?


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Well, I got some of the proper grease to check my contact pattern and it's perfect, exactly the same as it was when it came out of the engine. Surprised since everything to do with it was moved and changed but makes things a whole lot easier.

Everything is good to go, just need to drop top end on and it's ready. Not sure if my parts are here or not.. never got a chanced to go to the mail box to look for Canada post slip. Ill know tomorrow, hopefully they are so I can go riding!!!


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## hondaforman06 (Jun 29, 2012)

how much money you got in the internal bearings and seals? mine decided to spin a rad bearin so im finna pull mine down more than likely


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

I already answered this but for some reason it just disappeared.. for all gaskets, seals, O rings, chains, about $500. + crank, rods, and what ever bearings you need.

I got my pistons and rear cylinder on.. man is it ever hard trying to get those rings compressed to go in cylinder by hand.. and by yourself. Finger tips all cut up was getting blood on everything lol. but I got it.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Cleaned my side cover, took a look at the magneto and crank sensor off to see what LOOKS like rust. Im not sure if this is part of the coating on the magneto, but im thinking.. some of you might remember that I had a long thread on here about a idle problem? do you guys think maybe when I did my 840 maybe it rusted a bit and I didn't see it, and that was causing my idle to be erratic?? Need some opinions here. Thanks


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## SLVRBRT (Jun 27, 2012)

Totally different scale, but my chainsaw was running like crap, would start, run at WOT for a few seconds and die. Had flushed gas, etc, was pulling covers to remove and clean the carb and I just happened to notice the magnets on the flywheel were covered in rust. Cleaned it up with emery, rubbed on a little fluid film to prevent it rusting again and it ran like new.

Long story short, rust on there could cause an issue I would think, altho it doesnt look too terrible.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Yea makes sense. I don't know if it's the actual coating on there or rust though.. + what I should clean it off there really don't want to mess with that sensor.


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## mossyoak54 (Jan 16, 2012)

Wd40 on a cloth and wipe it. See if it comes off. WD40 is safe on electronics it's what it was designed for originally. I've used it on fan motors other miscellaneous stuff. 


Sent from the mans IPhone.


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## narfbrain (Sep 25, 2012)

that could cause an issue if it was bad enough to actually affect your charge....the outside part doesnt matter so much but where it is rusted on the paddles where it looks "wound" is where it matters could definatly potentially cause charging issues for sure.....but it really shouldnt so much cause idling issues because its pulling power for spark off of your battery not the magneto itself.......so if your not having charging issues then it shouldnt be the cause........however while you have it apart does look like a potential problem i would rectify before putting it back together.........also i would not use wd40 on anything as i have that it will CAUSE things to rust horribly afterwards and i have seen that myself (something to do with electrosis from the alcohol in it..... i cant remember off hand but it was explained to me by another mechanic who was basically a genius just better to stay away from it) mind you that is when exposed to air and dry so it shouldnt be that much of a problem........i would use something like fluidfilm which is actually a rust inhibitor if you choose to go that route instead of replacement


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

And the best part: 






These cams are definitely still loud in there..but not the low knock like before it sounds normal, everything is running good going for a ride tomorrow.


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## adam6604 (Feb 5, 2012)

glad you got it fixed and running, im in the process of trying to find a local shop to put a 840 kit in mine..and not charge me an arm and a leg to do so.. lol


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Congrats!! Sounds good.


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Thanks NM, so far everything is good. The only snag was red rear head pipe during cam break in, think it was just the fact it was running at that rpm sitting so long soon as it was dropped to regular idle it was gone. Also did the proper catch can with a return to the rear exhaust inspection cover. We will see how that works today.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Waddaman said:


> Thanks NM, so far everything is good. The only snag was red rear head pipe during cam break in, think it was just the fact it was running at that rpm sitting so long soon as it was dropped to regular idle it was gone. Also did the proper catch can with a return to the rear exhaust inspection cover. We will see how that works today.


Good luck...and have fun.


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## dman66 (Feb 20, 2011)

Thanks Waddaman for all the info and pics - may be able to help some of us down the road......


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## Waddaman (Oct 3, 2010)

Hopefully it will pics always help me and will help people in the future. If you have pics of what it looked like coming apart and your not sure of something the pics will tell you.

I went riding Saturday and it worked great not a problem. No leaks no sounds full power shifts better then before. Going to run it for a couple more weekends do an oil change and set valves again and it should be done break in.

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