# Clutch springs R&D (2005-2011)



## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

***Admin Edit** All info in this thread pertains to 2005-2011 Brute Clutches. 2012+ saw a clutch design change and while springs will fit, they do not produce the same result.* 

Hey guys...As some of you know I play around a lot with springs and such.

If there is any type of spring combo you may interested in with different size tires let me know. As of right now the only sizes I have to mess with is 28x10x12 Silverbacks, 27 inch Bighorns on ITP steelies, 28 inch Swamplites, and wore out set of 29.5x10x12 Outlaws. Those are the only sets I could find to use that was here at the shop. The only secondary I will not use is the Yellow...we all know what its for and what it will do...so no sense in my messing with it.

as far as primary springs I have or can get real fast is... Pink, Almond, Bright Green, Gold, Red, Dark Green, and White....I don't have a Orange, Purple, Maroon, Yellow and I am still not sure if we have a Red one left but will let you all know...I could get some if need be. 

Weights...I only have 54 and Fifty-Six gram ones... If you you all think 52 gram weights would be good let me know and I will see I can find some. 

I will only have about a month to do this....I will use a 09 750 and a 08 Six50i...sorry as you most all know my number six key don't work...lol


BTW...I will more than likely be calling Superbogger750 with some questions about certain weights to try. lol

Thanks, Bootlegger


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## Crawfishie!! (Dec 9, 2009)

right now, i'm running 28" swamp light's on 14" wheels......i have an almond primary about to be installed, what secondary would you suggest? In the NEAR future, I plan to get the 30"backs......it would be nice to only have to change the springs one time and be done with it....


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

One thing I would like to see tested but you probably don't have the springs readily available is how the epi secondary springs compare to the Dalton secondary springs. 

I know they have there measurements listed on the charts but Dalton says that their violet spring is good for 29.5+ tires but by the numbers it is equivalent to about an epi black.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

Brutally Muddin said:


> right now, i'm running 28" swamp light's on 14" wheels......i have an almond primary about to be installed, what secondary would you suggest? In the NEAR future, I plan to get the 30"backs......it would be nice to only have to change the springs one time and be done with it....


that will be hard to do with those two tires....about the closet you could get would be a Lime Green secondary....but it would be too much for the SL's.



brute650i said:


> One thing I would like to see tested but you probably don't have the springs readily available is how the epi secondary springs compare to the Dalton secondary springs.
> 
> I know they have there measurements listed on the charts but Dalton says that their violet spring is good for 29.5+ tires but by the numbers it is equivalent to about an epi black.


HA....I just got a pm about something like this. I may order a Violet Dalton...I think thats the secondary from them...I am not too good with Kawie Dalton kits.....Suzuki kits from dalton I am.... I can probably order one and let you know with 31's or 30's. what EPI primary you want used?


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

Thats one part i havent really decided on. maybe a pink or something with some more stall.

what im really looking for is something that i can run with my 29.5's and also when i go racing running stock tires i can still spray and not be at top speed banging the rev limiter.

I know with an EPI green it hits the limiter at 55mph ish on stock tires. that just wont cut it maybe if the race was 200ft instead of 300ft.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

brute650i said:


> Thats one part i havent really decided on. maybe a pink or something with some more stall.
> 
> what im really looking for is something that i can run with my 29.5's and also when i go racing running stock tires i can still spray and not be at top speed banging the rev limiter.
> 
> I know with an EPI green it hits the limiter at 55mph ish on stock tires. that just wont cut it maybe if the race was 200ft instead of 300ft.


I will order one tomorrow evening....I will try it with the EPI Bright Green and Gold....those have a little stall but not much...I can try about any primary you like, just let me know which ones?


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

pink or maroon and EPI white if you have it. Those 2 should give me a good idea. 

I can find a primary that will work well with the setup i just want to see what top speed is with stock size tires and if its enough for the 29.5's. 

This is the list of primaries that i can try once i know if it does what i want:
comet 
white
silver/black
EPI
pink
red
orange
purple
almond
Dalton
orange/blue
blue


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

you want me to try it for top speed with the oem tires?


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

if you could that would be great and then see how it pulls with the bigger tires.

me and phreebsd had this conversation a while back but we never got around to testing it out.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

OK... I will let you know....It will be later in the week before I can actually start anything.....I usually have to do it in the evenings or weekends.


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

That is no problem. Thanks for all the help and advice you give on the forums


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

brute650i said:


> That is no problem. Thanks for all the help and advice you give on the forums



Thanks...hopefully in a few months I will know enough about my new Suzuki...lol.


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## Heath070707 (Oct 12, 2009)

I just sold my 28 zillas and was wondering what a better setup for stock size tires than the stock clutching? I had a maroon primary and almond secondary. As far as clutch parts that i have laying around is a set of 54 weights, stock, maroon and red primary and stock,almond, and black secondary. The 54 weights I have never used them so I dont know how they do.Thanks


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

Maroon and black secondary should do pretty good with stock sized tires. I believe that is what polaris425 is running.

As far as weights that is over my head so ill let someone else comment on them


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## Heath070707 (Oct 12, 2009)

Thats the setup that i was planning on trying, just wanted a second opinion first.


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

If you felt like trying them out you could put the 54g weights in there too.


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## Heath070707 (Oct 12, 2009)

if you are familiar with the weights what kind of results do you think a would have?


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

The 54 gram weights do well with a Gold Primary and Lime Green secondary...that is all I have tried them with so far....it does real good IMO. Pulls hard all the way through.


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## Heath070707 (Oct 12, 2009)

I am a little in the dark on exactly how the clutch weights work. To my understanding on just looking at them i would guess the force of the primary spinning they would narrow the gap on the sheeve? How much would going to the 54s change this and how would it change? More low end? faster progression?


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## drtj (May 3, 2009)

What about 29.5 swamplites? I not really concerned with top speed. The fastest I go is about 30 that's when I'm riding my boy on dirt roads. Thanks boot ur the man


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

drtj said:


> What about 29.5 swamplites? I not really concerned with top speed. The fastest I go is about 30 that's when I'm riding my boy on dirt roads. Thanks boot ur the man


They weigh the same as 29.5 Outlaws or close I think....I would do a Almond Primary and Red Secondary from EPI


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## drtj (May 3, 2009)

K thanks. I'm glad they weigh bout the same cause when they wear out I'm getting some laws


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

Any update? Just checking on how its comin


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

With all the single digit Temps and snow I didn't get out in it...lol. I did start this past Wednesday on some stuff. I rolled out the 09 Demo 750...First off..if you wanna have a little fun...the Gold Primary Lime Green secondary and 54 gram weights...are off the chain. with 28 Silverbacks & the 29.9x10 Outlaws....did really well with Fifty-Six grams weights too. that is a great set up IMO. 

I am going to mess with weights mainly and really see how stiff of a secondary we really need to run. I also tried the 27 inch Bighorns with pink primary, Almond secondary and 54 gram weights and it was beast with that. I raced my Brute the first time or two with an maroon primary, almond secondary and 27x12 Outlaws and they are heavier than my 28x10 Silverbacks....and I never once had a problem. It would stand up and pull hard. I also ran the 29.5x10's with the pink pri. and almond secondary...did ok...but I really think you need to aleast run the Lime Green with those....but not with a Maroon primary. 

This is really all I have had time to do....I will do a bunch more this week and next. I will sit down in about two weeks and type up all the tire combo's and spring & weight combo's that I tried. Then I will put what I thought was good and what what not. Again...if anyone has an idea...I will try it.


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

Are you using epi weights or Dalton?


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

EPI is all I have....


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

I have some Great info to put up later today. I will just edit this post when I get a chance today and instead of putting what tires with what springs...I will just tell you what I have learned a lot with weights in the past week and half.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

Ok...I will make this short as I can and hopefully it will make sense....lol. I Tested from 27 to 31 inch tires. This is just an overview of what works the best with what. 

For tires from 25-27 trail or mud tire...all you need is springs. Weights are not needed. Also some trail/mud tires like Zilla's, Mudlites, Swamplites in 28 inch. Just running springs on those are ok as well depending on the weight of each individual tire. You can PM me for if you have any questions on a certain tire or weight set up.

A lot of people think when you put on a tire like a 29.5 Outlaw for instance...just put a Red secondary in and your good to go...NOT True! Your primary spring and weights play a huge role in your belt grip. If you are going to run any pure mud tire...you NEED to change your primary spring and weights if you want the most out of your bike and what your CVT has to offer.

Tires that are 28 inches & up that are a pure mud tire like Silverbacks, Vampire EDL's, Outlaws, MudZilla's and so on. Weights are a Huge factor in your belt grip and performance of your bike. With 28 inch Silverbacks, Outlaws, & EDL's...I would suggest 54 or 56 Gram weights. For 29.5 & 31 inch Outlaws, 30 or 32 inch Silverbacks...I would run 56 gram weights. with a Blue or Red EPI secondary...the only tire that I personally would even think about running a Yellow secondary with would be the 32 inch Silverbacks. I am sure some will disagree with me and that is totally fine.

As far as the springs go...The EPI Blue is actually stiffer than the Red when compressed to 1 1/4 load rate. "IMO" The Blue work very well with the 29.5 Outlaws so did the Lime Green. I used a Almond Primary with 56 gram weights with those and was very pleased. If you going to buy a Kit I would suggest buying the EPI or QSC "Quad Shop Customs" kits. If your going to go with EPI...its better IMO to order everything separate unless they will tell you whats in the kit your buying. Adam at QSC's if you tell him what your doing...he will put you together a great set up for your bike and style of riding. 

I hope some of you all find this helpful...I know its common knowledge to most but maybe for a newer rider to the Kawie's it will help. If anyone has any questions feel free to PM me and I will help all I can.

Thanks, Bootlegger


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

Did you ever test the Dalton violet spring? What kind of results did you see with the 54g weights and almond secondary?


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

Brute650i said:


> Did you ever test the Dalton violet spring? What kind of results did you see with the 54g weights and almond secondary?


Sorry...yes I did test it and IMO it was not very good for bigger tires like the 29.5's & up....seemed like it was lacking even with the weights. Kinda like it was not stiff enough for the bigger tires. It did ok with my 28.10x12 Silverbacks...I just wasn't impressed like I thought I would have been....know what I mean? :thinking: With that springs...the Fifty-Six gram weights would be better....but I would atleast an Almond primary or one close to it in rating. 28 inch is the biggest tire I would run with that spring.


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

I was really hoping the Dalton would do better than that 

I picked up a clutch kit last night with almond secondary, pink primary and 54g weights so I guess I'm gonna do some comparisons with 54g weights and lime green and almond secondary springs. I really want to run the almond if I can't get it to pull good down low with the 29.5's. I'm bringing 2 setups with me to the meet and greet. I'm gonna try the almond first with the 54g weights and pink primary and if that don't work I'm gonna go swap to the lime green and orange primary with 54g weights. Hopefully the serpent won't eat another belt but I'm coming prepared.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

It did fine with the 28 Silverbacks of mine....but with the bigger tires...it was not what I expected. If your not in real thick or heavy mud I would think it would do fine.


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## phreebsd (Dec 16, 2004)

what's the weight of the stock weights in?:

05-07 750's
08+ 750's 

i have said for a while weights are the major factor in the primary for belt grip.
The article i posted a while back that was very legnthy explained cvt cluthching.
it states "After the primary springs allows engagement, the weights take over "

I think weights and a lighter secondary than yellow are what i'll need to run longer than 2 mins WOT in the serpent. no 4x4 help too!


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

phreebsd said:


> what's the weight of the stock weights in?:
> 
> 05-07 750's
> 08+ 750's
> ...


Crap...I can't remember what they are...:thinking: they are not very heavy though. If I had your bike Phreebsd I would have a Almond primary with Fifty-Six Gram weights and a Red secondary...just to help with the size of the 31's...maybe the Blue...I really like it. I ran the Blue with 31 last week and took it to some THICK mud and it did just fine.


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## GDUBSTOY (Jan 20, 2010)

Im runnin 30" Backs and im still a lil confused about what i should be have. I've been listening to a few friends that don't have brutes or messed with the springs. I told run the red & maroon spring combo, any feed back would be great.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

GDUBSTOY said:


> Im runnin 30" Backs and im still a lil confused about what i should be have. I've been listening to a few friends that don't have brutes or messed with the springs. I told run the red & maroon spring combo, any feed back would be great.


If I had yours bike with your set up I would run a Almond Primary with Fifty-Six gram weights. Just leave the red secondary since its already in there...that way you don't have to buy another one. The Red will be fine. I think you would like that set-up better and it would work great for you. If you want a little stall get the Gold primary. Anytime you have a pure mud tire and its 28 or bigger....you really need the weights and a stiffer primary.


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

I thought the weights are 58g in the brutes and prairie's, 56g in the v force, and 40 something in the 360's


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## goose750 (Feb 27, 2009)

im running 28 zillas with maroon primary and green secondary has plenty of power but is this my best set up for thes tires ? would i have better luck with a different secondary / primary?


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## phreebsd (Dec 16, 2004)

58? dang! i dunno that wouldnt leave much room to go up!
i think the heavier weights you can buy are 54 and 56.
that leads me to believe stock weights are 52g. (for 750's)

or maybe they're 54. then you can go down to 52 or up to 56?


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## drtyTshrt (May 27, 2009)

Bootlegger, how are you doing these tests,under what conditions? Unless you have already stated tell me to go back and reread. How many setups do you run in a day/race and how thick is your note book?


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

Checked with a buddy of mine and the brute's are 58g the v force are 54g and he said he thought the 360 prairie's were 50g but he wasn't for sure either way they are light


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

drtyTshrt said:


> Bootlegger, how are you doing these tests,under what conditions? Unless you have already stated tell me to go back and reread. How many setups do you run in a day/race and how thick is your note book?


General Riding and Mud is where I rode it at....but most anyone who will tell you that messes with this stuff some of these are a commons set ups...some are not. As far as how many I tested...over the past 1.5 weeks probably about 8 or 9 set ups this time. This time I basically wanted to test the weights...and I can tell you that I ruin one belt....lol. The Weights play a huge role in your belt grip so does your primary spring...most think its just secondary...its not. That really on compensates for a lower gear and will also help belt grip....but not like most think. With the borrow 31's I had...I slipped the belt then added Fifty-Six gram weights and almost same situation did not slip after adding the weights.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

Stock Brute Force 750i weights are 52 grams....I think some of the earlier 05 models has 50 gram. I just checked with Kawie...well actually I called work and had them call and check. All the "I" Models are the same.


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## drtyTshrt (May 27, 2009)

Bootlegger said:


> Stock Brute Force 750i weights are 52 grams....I think some of the earlier 05 models has 50 gram. I just checked with Kawie...well actually I called work and had them call and check. All the "I" Models are the same.


I just measured my stock weights and Boot is correct they weighed 52 grams


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

Hmm I guess I was wrong I could have sworn they were heavier than the v force weights


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## quik660 (Jul 16, 2009)

i am currently running a pink primary and red secondary.....you say to use the 56g weights and a blue secondary.....what primary spring???? what does this do to your top end??


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

quik660 said:


> i am currently running a pink primary and red secondary.....you say to use the 56g weights and a blue secondary.....what primary spring???? what does this do to your top end??


Are you talking about with your 31's??? If so...I like the Almond or Gold with the 31's...the Gold is what comes in the Mudder kit....but it has a small stall to it. Your top end will be same as if you had the Red...if you have a Red now...just keep it.


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## 86buickgn (Jan 26, 2010)

Bootlegger said:


> Hey guys...As some of you know I play around a lot with springs and such.
> 
> If there is any type of spring combo you may interested in with different size tires let me know. As of right now the only sizes I have to mess with is 28x10x12 Silverbacks, 27 inch Bighorns on ITP steelies, 28 inch Swamplites, and wore out set of 29.5x10x12 Outlaws. Those are the only sets I could find to use that was here at the shop. The only secondary I will not use is the Yellow...we all know what its for and what it will do...so no sense in my messing with it.
> 
> ...


Ya got some 54 gram weights that you would like to sell? 05 650 V2. U recommended 54 gram weights to me in a PM that I sent you. How much shipped to 31001? I have PayPal.


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

pm fl750mudder or bump530 I think they had some for sale.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

No...I am keeping mine..


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## tony1j (Mar 11, 2011)

Ok bootlegger, I know this has been beat to death, I have been reading the MILLIONS of replies you have done to clutching and jetting questions and I am GLAD that you are so willing to share your knowledge!! 
I have an 05 BF 750, runnin 29.5x 12s on rear 10s on front, HMF, snorkled. I am pretty sure after reading everything that Red is the way to go on secondary but torn on primary, should I go Almond or Maroon?
I do NOT care about top end, I want the power in the mud!! Would like to not have much of a stall. What would you suggest? Thanks!!


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## Polaris425 (Dec 16, 2004)

If you don't want much stall go maroon. IIRC almond will have more but I can't remember the order at the moment. Whichever is first/lower on our chart will have less stall.

*just checked. Maroon will have less stall.


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## tony1j (Mar 11, 2011)

10-4 thank you!! I think that is what I will order then, maroon primary and red secondary.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

tjjohnson36 said:


> 10-4 thank you!! I think that is what I will order then, maroon primary and red secondary.


Good choice. You'll be happy


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## Graysen (Jan 1, 2012)

Here is an post about clutching it helped me alot


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## Polaris425 (Dec 16, 2004)

Graysen said:


> Here is an post about clutching it helped me alot


first off, links to other sites arent allowed unless our link is there. Second, polaris clutching is WAY WAY WAY WAY different than Kawasaki.


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## Graysen (Jan 1, 2012)

woops sorry and i had no clue lol im running a polaris 500 with 26 mudwolfs fronts weight 28.8 and backs weigh 35.5lbs any suggestions on spring combo's? thanks


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## Polaris425 (Dec 16, 2004)

not the in kawi section no... lol

try here

http://www.mudinmyblood.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9283

thats for newer models than yours but, might apply.


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## Graysen (Jan 1, 2012)

cool thanks


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## Derek rhodes (Feb 3, 2012)

I just bought a new brute I have ordered skinny 29.5 outlaw2s on diesel rims I also ordered almond primary and red secondary for it would y'all have an idea as to what weights I should use with this combination or if I need to


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## filthyredneck (Feb 10, 2010)

My understanding is that weights are for fine tuning your clutch and most people just change the springs other than a select few. The guys that deal more with them are the racers. I've never changed my weights, however I am curious how much difference i'd see if I did.

-Killing Time Using Tapatalk-


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

filthyredneck said:


> My understanding is that weights are for fine tuning your clutch and most people just change the springs other than a select few. The guys that deal more with them are the racers. I've never changed my weights, however I am curious how much difference i'd see if I did.
> 
> -Killing Time Using Tapatalk-


A few grams either way makes a lot of difference. Kinda depends what you need to do though.


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## Eastexasmudder (Nov 21, 2011)

I have played with different weights for mine, it's not necessary to change them, if your not racing or in extreme peanut butter I wouldn't worry. It's not the weight it self that makes the difference but how there shaped and how the weight is placed when there made if I've under stood what I've read. I am running lighter weights than stock but they are curved alot different and it engages differently for sure when I have a high stall spring in. I run a maroon primary now and like the way it's working. But after all the money for them and testing
Just stock weights will be fine.


I'd rather be riding instead I'm using tapatalk!


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## justin8886 (May 25, 2012)

What would you suggest for 30" itp's mainly for creek riding and trails


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## Polaris425 (Dec 16, 2004)

Check the trail clutch thread in Kawi how to clutching section


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## justin8886 (May 25, 2012)

Ok thanks


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## Rustin Dolan (May 20, 2018)

So I've got a 16 and I switch between 29.5 assassionators and 28" terminators. I've got a red and yellow secondary and a maroon and almond primary. I've tried both secondary's and I'm not happy with them. My buddy has an 18 and is running the same assassionators I am and he has stock clutch and his comes right off the ground when he mashes the go lever. Do I need weights? Are my springs to much of an overkill and should I drop back to a different color? I'm at a loss here.


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Alladrenaline said:


> So I've got a 16 and I switch between 29.5 assassionators and 28" terminators. I've got a red and yellow secondary and a maroon and almond primary. I've tried both secondary's and I'm not happy with them. My buddy has an 18 and is running the same assassionators I am and he has stock clutch and his comes right off the ground when he mashes the go lever. Do I need weights? Are my springs to much of an overkill and should I drop back to a different color? I'm at a loss here.


None of those old springs will be effective in anything newer then 2012. The only springs that will help you are VFJ's. Call him. Tell him what you have and he will get you set up correctly.


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## Polaris425 (Dec 16, 2004)

NMKawierider said:


> None of those old springs will be effective in anything newer then 2012. The only springs that will help you are VFJ's. Call him. Tell him what you have and he will get you set up correctly.


^ Ditto!


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## Rustin Dolan (May 20, 2018)

So the springs I have from epi are not designed for my 16? I did not know that Gus’s I’ll be throwing the stock ones back in until I get ahold of John


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Alladrenaline said:


> So the springs I have from epi are not designed for my 16? I did not know that Gus’s I’ll be throwing the stock ones back in until I get ahold of John


Right, those are all 2011 and older.


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## Rustin Dolan (May 20, 2018)

Just out of curiosity. What is different between the ‘11 and older and the ‘12 and newer


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

Alladrenaline said:


> Just out of curiosity. What is different between the ‘11 and older and the ‘12 and newer


Although the old springs will fit in them, the clutches were redesigned with different ...everything including weights, ramps, rollers, helix and ratios, belt contact angles and sizes to use the teryx belts..lots of things.


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## Polaris425 (Dec 16, 2004)

I'm going to edit the title of this thread so that it reflects for 2011- brutes...


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## 2017 bruteforce (Aug 9, 2018)

Just bought 28 inch silverbacks wondering if what kind of springs I should use I want the most low end torque but want to keep as much top end as possible for gravel travel on a different set of tires of course


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## NMKawierider (Apr 11, 2009)

2017 bruteforce said:


> Just bought 28 inch silverbacks wondering if what kind of springs I should use I want the most low end torque but want to keep as much top end as possible for gravel travel on a different set of tires of course


 Need to talk with VFJ and use his springs for anything newer then 2012. You can call or email him. His contact info is on his web site: 

vforcejohn.com


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