# Front diff - differential thread... Ideas on building it stronger...



## Wpeschel (Jan 21, 2009)

Well I blew my front diff a few days ago from my own stupidity/drunkeness.. I have not pulled it apart as of yet.. I was wondering who if any of you have rebuilt your front diff stronger? Here is my plan.. I dont know the damage as of yet so i'm not sure what all needs to be replaced.. I am thinking of getting the new bevel gears and shaft they ride on cryo'd, or shot peened for strength.. What are yalls thoughts on that? I will have a groove machined into the shaft the bevel gears ride on as well, for better oiling.. If yall have any ideas lets kick them around here... I am currently studying for a promotion for work so this is gonna take a few months... Soo lets just discuss front diffs.. When I get it done I will do a write up in the how too section. Thanks for any ideas/suggestions.. Wesley


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## JArod (Jun 11, 2009)

i can't help you on this topic 'never had this problem


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## Wpeschel (Jan 21, 2009)

JArod said:


> i can't help you on this topic 'never had this problem


 
Search it.. It is a quite problem with the Brutes... I will be posting this on highlifter as well..


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## Polaris425 (Dec 16, 2004)

sounds like it would be better if you can get it done!


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## IBBruin (Feb 10, 2009)

I know having metal cryo'd make the steel harder but I understood it also makes the steel more brittle. I may be way off but just trying to get things kicked off. It seems like I read somewhere that some are drilling holes in the bevel gears for better lubrication.


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## hondarecoveryman (Feb 28, 2009)

shot peening is better than cryo but still makes steel brittle .. The stronger you make it the more brittle it gets Like grade 5 and grade 8 bolts Grade 8 has more pull strength than a grade 5 , but a grade 5 has more sheer strength than Grade 8 Because it Can bend a little before it breaks


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## Wpeschel (Jan 21, 2009)

Randy's ring and pinion charge approx 50 bucks to cryo a ring and pinion for a full size ring and pinion.. I was wondering if anyone has done it or not.. I havent even pulled mine apart yet. It will prolly be a few weeks before I get the time to pull it apart and get it goin..


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320377&highlight=cryo+ring

Sum info above on cryoed..


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## Wpeschel (Jan 21, 2009)

Well i am going to finally get this project done.. I plan on pulling the frond diff tomorrow. Is there a way to pull it witout taking the whole front end apart?


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## Hangingfor8 (Oct 3, 2009)

I'm currently rebuilding my diff also. I had a bearing fail causing metal through out the housing which also cracked the diff case. I'm putting mine back stock, because I really didn't have many problems with it till now. I know pulling the diff is a real pain. You'll have to pull your steering shaft and upper a arm on one side then it's like a puzzle sliding it out.


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## CajunCryogenics (May 2, 2010)

*Cryo processing*

Thought I might say a few things,
 First if cryogenic processing is done correctly it will not make metals harder or more brittle. Only if the subject metal has been poorly heat treated will the hardness increase due to the transformation of retained Austenite. If this is the case the processor should do a mild temper afterwards, this will relax the newly formed Martensite and combat the brittleness.

Gears are a great thing to cryo process and the metal commonly used to make gears reacts very well to cryo treatment. I have some research on this subject and will be happy to share it if anyone is interested.

I also process items for businesses to evaluate for themselves for free and am willing to do the same for people who want to try out something I have not already tested. There are many benefits of cryo processing for use in the 4x4 world including strengthening of many components. 
David


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## SLVRBRT (Jun 27, 2012)

Digging up an old thread here, but curious if the original poster ever did the cryo treat on the diff parts?

Looking into having it done on mine also, trying to find out anyone's previous results.


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

Im actually taking a cage and two of the gears in to work and our metallurgest is going to check the hardness and tell me the best rout to take on this if it would be better to get them treated or just get a whole new cage made out of something other then cast.I will get something figured out to make these stronger.Im also going to try and figure out different seals for the diff and front and rear engine seal I was thinking timken seal theres got to be some better ones out there.


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## Takeum (Sep 18, 2012)

From what I have been reading, Cryo - Rem process is what alt of guys are using for strength and longevity. It puts on a chrome type finish that strengthens and allows the metals to have oil adhere better....


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

Hey mods can all of theses diff threads joined together some how.


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## carms_2 (Jul 21, 2010)

I think all this j*** about heat treating and cryo is a complete waste of time guys!!! The bikes are designed pretty good and are pretty strong plenty of oil changes keep the seals good and it'll be alright. Ive got an 06 no issues with the front diff till now. I'm digging into the rebuild now and plan on a complete stock rebuild. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks


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## SLVRBRT (Jun 27, 2012)

Talked to a Cryo place not far from home here, he figured (as just a preliminary guess) that it'd be maybe $200 to do all the internals. Well worth trying I think. Problem is, I don"t have the time right now, need to get it back together so I can plow out the foot plus of snow that just fell. Once I get the parts together to build my spare diff I'm going to be taking them to him.

Was also thinking of checking with a small machine shop here that does excellent custom work to see what it would cost to get the gear carrier made out of some decent material, but I suspect it may be prohibitively expensive.

May also check into having him make an actual spool instead and ditch all the gears, cross shaft, etc.

---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------



carms_2 said:


> I think all this j*** about heat treating and cryo is a complete waste of time guys!!! The bikes are designed pretty good and are pretty strong plenty of oil changes keep the seals good and it'll be alright. Ive got an 06 no issues with the front diff till now. I'm digging into the rebuild now and plan on a complete stock rebuild. Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Thanks


 
This is the second Kawi I've had, first was an 02 P650, had the diff out of it 4 times, shrapneled each time. Oil changed after each ride, or at least every second ride. These are short, very mud filled rides, lucky to put on more than 60-70 km in a few hrs. 

Brute diff seemed to be doing ok til just recently, but it's a glaring weak point in an otherwise excellent bike, if there is a cost effective way to make it better, I'm gonna be all over it.


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

SLVRBRT said:


> Talked to a Cryo place not far from home here, he figured (as just a preliminary guess) that it'd be maybe $200 to do all the internals. Well worth trying I think. Problem is, I don"t have the time right now, need to get it back together so I can plow out the foot plus of snow that just fell. Once I get the parts together to build my spare diff I'm going to be taking them to him.
> 
> Was also thinking of checking with a small machine shop here that does excellent custom work to see what it would cost to get the gear carrier made out of some decent material, but I suspect it may be prohibitively expensive.
> 
> ...


What do u mean by spool....


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

So our meyallurgest at work took one of each gear 10 tooth and 16 tooth and the gear carrier(cage) to do some testing on.Said that he had to cut some pieces to find out more but thinks the carrier is the problem. But like he said its cast parts so who knows.He also said might be awhile so soon as I hear anything I will post it.We both agreed the carrier should be made out of something stronger from the way the 10 tooth gears wear into the machined races on the carrier.


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## SLVRBRT (Jun 27, 2012)

brutemike said:


> What do u mean by spool....


 
As in one solid chunk, no differential action at all...when in 4wd it'd be in true 4wd...I use 2wd all the time anyway until truly needed.


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

SLVRBRT said:


> As in one solid chunk, no differential action at all...when in 4wd it'd be in true 4wd...I use 2wd all the time anyway until truly needed.


Wouldn't that make it hard to steer all the time if so that would suck.


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## SLVRBRT (Jun 27, 2012)

Yeah, thought that after too, would be tough in 2wd also most likely.
Seems the best bet is a replacement cage made from some kind of good material. If it was stronger I think that would fix most of the issues with the diff. A true locker would be nice too tho.


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## Takeum (Sep 18, 2012)

Mike,,, oh yea,,, in the I'd days people used to make a poor mans 4 wd by welding the spiders to the cross shaft as to get posi out of a non posi spool..now of course we have clutch packs to lock he rear upon torque of rear wheels,,


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

Takeum said:


> Mike,,, oh yea,,, in the I'd days people used to make a poor mans 4 wd by welding the spiders to the cross shaft as to get posi out of a non posi spool..now of course we have clutch packs to lock he rear upon torque of rear wheels,,


Yes ive herd that before.


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## No_Substitue_For_A_Brute (May 4, 2011)

Takeum said:


> Mike,,, oh yea,,, in the I'd days people used to make a poor mans 4 wd by welding the spiders to the cross shaft as to get posi out of a non posi spool..now of course we have clutch packs to lock he rear upon torque of rear wheels,,


We still weld our spider gears together on all of our trucks. Never gives any problems and is far cheaper than a full spool.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

Just a small up date this is a slow process but making way.The guys cut the gears and did test but for now the gears are just hardened on the out side and inside of them is much softer and also found cracks on the inside of good gears.Haven't got to the carrier yet but he will.He also is going to write all the info down for me like the hardness and types of metals the stuff is.I will get this figured out how to strengthen this things just give me some more time.....he is a busy man at work.


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