# just got my msd charge fi in for my brute got a couple questions?



## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

I just got it in today haven't put it on yet. I was looking at What Vforcejohn wrote on the box he set the Rpm limit at 9500 my question is what are they set at stock? And is 9500 to high for a stock motor?


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## Brute650i (Dec 17, 2008)

9500 is fine you won't see that rpm unless you hold it wide open for LONG stretches. The dyno cdi for carbed brutes are set at 9200


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

Oh ok thanks so it wont go that high unless on long stretched or you break a belt gotcha


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## brutemike (Mar 23, 2010)

Let us know how you like it and the differences you feel in it.:bigok:


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## bigblackbrute (Jun 3, 2009)

i love mine that i have. ive gt a custome tune for a full big gun exhaust and it really opened the bike up.


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

Ok will do. All that's on mine is a opened up stock exhaust and air box with a 3" shortie snork. I plan on adding some stuff to it later on though


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## sjf323 (Mar 11, 2009)

Is it possible to pull the maps off of these things b/c I'm buying one locally (getting good deal) but does not come with custom map for muzzy map. Tried to contact Vforcejohn about buying a map but he never responded back...so I took that as a no.


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

He's a busy man. He got back to me pretty quick sun night guess I caught him at a good time. Yyoy should be able to get maps for them fairly easy is It going to come with the USB cable and CD software? They come preloaded with a pipe map from msd too.

It says in the manual that you can save edit and email files to transfer to a different controller so just find someone that has one tuned for what you got and getem to email you the file


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## Injected (Mar 21, 2010)

Vforcejohn is out of town atm attending a family matter. There is a post by him on kawieriders explaing why. 
As for re-mapping it, tell him what you have done to your bike and he will email you the map


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## countryboy61283 (Mar 20, 2010)

Got to remember every bike is different, just cause one map works on another guys bike with same setup doesn't mean it will work on yours, this is just my opinion but its best to have it customed tuned then rely on a pre set map


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## sjf323 (Mar 11, 2009)

countryboy61283 said:


> Got to remember every bike is different, just cause one map works on another guys bike with same setup doesn't mean it will work on yours, this is just my opinion but its best to have it customed tuned then rely on a pre set map


 
Believe me I understand this all to well with that VDI...I can not even run the latest and greatest maps or filmware b/c the bike will not run past quarter throttle.

Let us know how u like the MSD.


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

Yes every bike is different. But that's where a wideband o2 sensor monitor and laptop comes in. No need for a dyno with those things or have someone tune it for you. Just get a map that'll get you close then fine tune. Well that was pretty much my understanding from what Vforcejohn was telling me anyways


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## sjf323 (Mar 11, 2009)

jrfonte said:


> Yes every bike is different. But that's where a wideband o2 sensor monitor and laptop comes in. No need for a dyno with those things or have someone tune it for you. Just get a map that'll get you close then fine tune


 
That was my plan get a decent map to start with and take advantage of the bunge (sp ?) on the muzzy exhast and fine tune with wideband o2 sensor. Any point in the direction of unit? Basically all you need is sensor and guage right?


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

Yep just make sure it is wide band.

Well I've been playing with my msd for a bit now and have added about 20 points across the board on it and my pipes are still glowing red guess ill keep adding fuel till they quit so I can at least ride it. I see a wide band and monitor in the near future
I was thinking about a gauge package from innovative it says you can log directly into a laptop for real time view


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

Well I just ordered a digital wideband afr gauge package from innovate motorsports for the brute so I can get my afr in check using the msd and a laptop while running. This should be fun lol


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## countryboy61283 (Mar 20, 2010)

I wonder how hard it is to learn to do that


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## ARMSTRONGARMS (Dec 2, 2010)

Im cant wait to get your reviews on gains, so many people throw all kinds of stuff on at once so there's no way to know how much the MSD helped/or didnt. Keep us updated!


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## brute for mud (Jul 15, 2010)

i put the msd on it woke mine up i have an a/f gauge but its not hooked up yet


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

Its just like a jet kit for a carbed brute no real gains are expected from it. The gains come from the supported mods you do to i, high flow exhaust, air intake,cams and so on this is just to get your fuel mixture right for Max performance out of you mods you do the only thing I would expect gains from the msd is the timing.

Like when the bike was new and stock I could pin the throttle from a dead stop and the front end would come up. I put on 28 laws, modded the exhaust, opened up the intake and it didn't have the power anymore. I installed clutch springs maroon pri almond sec, and gained some low end back but lost topend. I installed a dg5 and didn't notice a thing with it (for sale by the way) it does not work with msd bike wont start. So I bought the msd cause my headers were glowing bright orange almost a whitish color. Installed it ran what Vforcejohn programmed in it for me still way to lean I increased the fuel 20% and its still lean a little but not as bad, gained some power back but its not right I've got some sputters here and there. So I bought the afr kit and gonna go from there n see what I can get out of it.


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

I need to figure out if there is a way to log to a laptop with the msd or maybe just record what is on my screen while I'm riding it around the afr kit I got can log to a laptop. So I am hoping to try to log both of them cause it'll make it easier to adjust. The only other thing I can think of is hook up a camera to record the screen cause I think it'll be hard to watch the screen when I'm holding the throttle wide open, and runing through trails on and off the throttle.

Oh yea and nothing against Vforcejohn and his tunes I didn't tell him what exactly I had done to it just a round about of stuff.


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## countryboy61283 (Mar 20, 2010)

jrfonte said:


> Its just like a jet kit for a carbed brute no real gains are expected from it. The gains come from the supported mods you do to i, high flow exhaust, air intake,cams and so on this is just to get your fuel mixture right for Max performance out of you mods you do the only thing I would expect gains from the msd is the timing.
> 
> Like when the bike was new and stock I could pin the throttle from a dead stop and the front end would come up. I put on 28 laws, modded the exhaust, opened up the intake and it didn't have the power anymore. I installed clutch springs maroon pri almond sec, and gained some low end back but lost topend. I installed a dg5 and didn't notice a thing with it (for sale by the way) it does not work with msd bike wont start. So I bought the msd cause my headers were glowing bright orange almost a whitish color. Installed it ran what Vforcejohn programmed in it for me still way to lean I increased the fuel 20% and its still lean a little but not as bad, gained some power back but its not right I've got some sputters here and there. So I bought the afr kit and gonna go from there n see what I can get out of it.


That's crazy, even when I put my laws on with no springs I still could pop the front end up with ease


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

I'm thinking it lost power when I opened up the intake and exhaust and made it run real lean. Since I've added more fuel its got more power to it now the front end comes up with just half throttle. But I'm still glowing just cruising around between 10 - 30 MPh in high just barely on the throttle.


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## countryboy61283 (Mar 20, 2010)

Your prolly right, that's never good when exhaust looks like a night light lol


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

Well I get my o2 gages in tomorrow and get to start tuning on it this weekend yea.


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

Got my innovate motorsports MTX-L wideband afr gauge (powersport model) all hooked up. Got the o2 sensor installed in the front header. Cranked it up and at idle engine cold its running at 15.7 afr. 
I've got a little pin hole where I welded the o2 sensor bung onto the header so ill fix it tomorrow my mig welder wouldn't feed the wire right cause it was dirty so I Lincoln locked it but didn't have small enough rods for exhaust pipe. But other than that everything works like its supposed to. I'll start tuning tomorrow with the msd and laptop.


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## sjf323 (Mar 11, 2009)

if the bung is after the two header pipes comes together, like on the muzzy, would that still work for tuning with wide band or does each cylinder have to be tuned? I figured that since the headers are equal lengths it would not matter. Is this correct?

I have been looking at there systems, is there a reason you went with the MTX-L? Also can you hook the MTX-L to the laptop? What you pay for it?

What kind of afr range should it be? Sorry for all the question but I'm planning on taking the same approach with my brute and MSD.

Scott


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

I'm not sure. With the msd you can tune the front cylinder and get it right then add or take away fuel from that tune for the rear cylinder same with timing. Which is why I put the sensor in the front header . Ill probally leave the rear cylinder set like it came programed for me from vfj since when I adjust the front one it does the same for the rear one. Yes the mtx-l connects to a laptop via serial cable I have to get a serial to USB cable for mine cause my laptop doesn't have a serial port but no biggie its only like 5 bucks. I went with the mtx-l over just there gauge and wideband 02 sensor cause it had less wiring to do everything is contained inside the gauge itself and its weather proof it had 3 wires red black and white for me to connect and it was on and working. Then just connect the 02 cables to it and you up and running really easy and the connectors are weather proof too. The gauge itself is really nice ( i can see it now im gonna have to have a digital coolant temp gauge to match it) if I could figure out how to post pics with this Droid phone I would.


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

http://www.mudinmyblood.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6235&stc=1&d=1299345958

Sorry I've been trying to figure out how to put up pics with this Droid phone. I figured it out now


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

Well I've been playing with it for about 2 hours now and its running alot better my buddy was riding with be on his 2011 800 Rene and he said I was pulling the front tires off the ground for a good 100 ft or more from a dead stop. 

It sounds alot better than it did now too.

Stock it was running an afr of around 13.5 to 17 in spots I've got it down to under 13.5. 12.7 in most spots its still got a few spots where it richens up to around 10.5.

Ill play with it some more tomorrow its cold outside right now bbrrr.


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

heres a couple pics


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

sjf323 said:


> That was my plan get a decent map to start with and take advantage of the bunge (sp ?) on the muzzy exhast and fine tune with wideband o2 sensor. Any point in the direction of unit? Basically all you need is sensor and guage right?


To tune it correctly you will need more than a sensor and gauge. To tune it correctly you will need a wideband with Data Logging. It will need to able to read and log RPM's. and Throttle position. There is a little more to tuning than most think. To tune them correctly it is. Just trying to help...if you need anything at all just PM me.

Mark


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

On these MSD's....can you not tune each cylinder individually? Like a separate map for each one? If your just doing a basic tune you wanna put the bung after the two pipes connect so your reading both cylinders....that is if your system is like that. if your trying to tune it like I read above....it will be off some. Not trying to be an butthole, so please don't take it like that. Just trying to help...! It will be closer to use your rear pipe due your back cylinder run hotter and usually uses more fuel to keep cool.

The optimal fuel burn will be 12.7-13.3 if that helps you any. It will take a little bit of time but as long as you get it to stay the same ratio form idle to WOT it will good....I mean it can move from like 12.8 -13.0 some just as long as there is no big spikes in it. If you can log your test runs with a data logger it will be much easier on you. If you need anything Or I can help you in any way let me know. 

If your running any place above 14.0 its too lean. Can you tune the MSD every 250 RPM's and at different throttle positions?...never tuned one cause their only made for Brutes and don't ever see many of them?


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

sjf323 said:


> if the bung is after the two header pipes comes together, like on the muzzy, would that still work for tuning with wide band or does each cylinder have to be tuned? I figured that since the headers are equal lengths it would not matter. Is this correct?
> 
> I have been looking at there systems, is there a reason you went with the MTX-L? Also can you hook the MTX-L to the laptop? What you pay for it?
> 
> ...


Scott...for a basic EFI tune and using one map for both cylinders that is where you want your bung...after the two pipe come together. If your going to do a dual cylinder tune put each bunch about 12 inches from the same. Honestly...on ATV"s bung placement is not a huge issue.

Are you all using a Dynojet Wideband Commander to tune with? If you need any help let me know.

Mark


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

You can tune the msd in 0-100% throttle in 10% increments and from 1000 to 10000 rpms in 1000 Rpm increments. All you can do with the rear cylinder is offset it from the tune on the front cylinder +- fuel and +- timing. The mtx-l gauge has a data logging program when connect to a laptop though the msd program does not. Need to figure out a way to record the msd program on the screen while the engine is running there is no option to do so in the program so it makes it hard to tune it and watch it while ridding. It would be so much easier if it did have logging so you could just ride then stop review it and make necessary adjustments then ride again till you get it lined out.


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

Bootlegger what kind of options do you have with the power commander? Can it log to a file, can you tune each cylinder individual?


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

jrfonte said:


> You can tune the msd in 0-100% throttle in 10% increments and from 1000 to 10000 rpms in 1000 Rpm increments. All you can do with the rear cylinder is offset it from the tune on the front cylinder +- fuel and +- timing. The mtx-l gauge has a data logging program when connect to a laptop though the msd program does not. Need to figure out a way to record the msd program on the screen while the engine is running there is no option to do so in the program so it makes it hard to tune it and watch it while ridding. It would be so much easier if it did have logging so you could just ride then stop review it and make necessary adjustments then ride again till you get it lined out.


It sounds like these would be nice with stock motors...but a dual cylinder tune is a must with BBK's. The PC you can tune change fuel every 250 RPM's. Just call me I will explain it better.



jrfonte said:


> Bootlegger what kind of options do you have with the power commander? Can it log to a file, can you tune each cylinder individual?


 Yes...that is why most of the racers with Big motors only use the Power Commander. Cause with a built motor a Dual cylinder is a must. You would be surprised at the difference with them. You log the data with you wide band. I will PM you my number and you can call me...it will take forever to type it out.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

jrfonte....let me know if you got the PM with my number...or pm me yours and I can call you.


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

Yea I got thanks ill give you a call probally this weekend I'm pretty busy on work days and nites right now


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

Ok....Thats cool. Call anytime.


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## sloverado (Mar 31, 2011)

Where did you hook up the power wire when installing the MTX-L? I am going to do this gauge instal this weekend.


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

I connected it to the same wire as my temp gauge power I think its tapped into the acc plug that goes to the power outlet by the handlebar. Switched power that works with key cause you don't wanna run the engine with the sensor not powered ... well so it says anyways.


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

here is a screen capture of my laptop while the brute is running down the road just to give an idea of what the software looks like.
the error 9 that you see on the wideband is because i have a bad ground and it keeps reading low voltage on the gauge.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

Did you get my PM. That looks pretty simple. The MSDs are nice for timing...but for actual fuel tuning....not so sure about since you can't create a fuel curve and can only adjust every 1,000's....there won't be much fine tuning on that. I guess its all in what you want. Timing advance or fine tuning. If you need my help just call me. I can explain to you what I was talking about better. As long as your wideband can log & read Rpm's and throttle position you will be fine. If not, not sure then.


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

Yea mark I got it thanks. I put that screen capture up so you could see what it looks like and yea I don't think its made for fine tuning just made to get you close I've got some issues to fix with the negative connection on the wideband and then I guess just capture the screen like I did while its running the replay it and pause it and switch back and forth adjusting the fuel on the msd and rerun it till I'm happy with it.


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## Bootlegger (Dec 18, 2008)

There you man...won't take you long and you'll get it. If you need any help at all just call me.


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## jrfonte (Mar 9, 2010)

Will do appreciate your help thanks


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